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Old 08-14-2020, 05:42 AM   #51
steamraise
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

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Originally Posted by mrmr View Post
putting in 2 chips that are enough for a legal raise is a raise in my book.
The rule couldn't be more clear. If you can remove one chip and there's not enough for a call, it's a call.
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Originally Posted by mrmr View Post
Especially when they could have
We don't check your stack to determine what you're thinking.
Should I also check to see if you owe the waitress and need change?
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Originally Posted by mrmr View Post
I think pulling back of chips already committed to the pot is a little bit of a gray area
that I don't think is totally clearly covered by the rules I glanced through in this thread.
The rule is clear. Not all rooms use it.
If you pull back chips you are committed to at least a call.

Here's a question guys.
What's a dealer to do when it's limped to the SB and he tosses in an
oversize chip, and everyone calls the raise before I can say anything?
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Old 08-14-2020, 08:08 AM   #52
answer20
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

Most of this rule in the TDA was revised this past session ... it's still VERY busy and you do end up applying other more 'familiar' rules when navigating.

46: Prior Bet Chips Not Pulled In
A: To avoid confusion, players with prior-bet chips not yet pulled in who face a raise should verbalize their action before adding chips to the prior bet.
B: If facing a raise, clearly pulling back a prior bet chip binds a player to call or raise; he or she may not put the chip(s) back out and fold.
C: If new chip(s) are added silently and the bet is unclear to the house, the call and raise rules 41-45 apply as follows:
1) If prior chips don’t cover the call AND are either left alone OR fully pulled
back, an overchip is a call and multiple new chips are subject to the 50% raise standard (Rule 43).
2) If prior chips are partly pulled back OR if prior chips cover the call, the combined final chip bet is a raise if reaching the 50% standard (Rules 43 & 45), if less it is a call. See Illustration Addendum.

Mrmr ... IMO there may be a crack in the rule here with the 50% rule applying to multiple new chips bet after previous chips are fully pulled back. This would mean that the OP spot should be considered a raise. But do you apply the Multi-chip Bet Rule before the 50% Rule or not at all? That is the question. It would appear that you don't get to apply MCB (Rule 45) unless the chips are 'added' silently. IMO you only apply the 50% rule if they are fully pulled back based on this new 2019 TDA language ... although it may not have been their intent, you would have to read up on the meeting notes.


Steamraise ... As far as 'backing up the bus' in the SB spot (Rule 45 Oversized Chip) ... Typically I would just apply the significant action conditions and if at least 2 Players have called then let it ride unless a rules Nit speaks up. (If the rules Nit is in the hand and doesn't speak up until action is on them, then I state 'too late'.) Could lead to a floor call though with some guys. Floors then have the option to back up action to the BB (with all options) or let it go. Or you can just call the Floor in the first place.

But to make your spot even more interesting ... what did the BB have out there and/or how did they 'call' the SB? You could have some fun with the table and squarely look at (presumably stunned) SB and say 'Action's on you' after it comes back around and then the BB will want to know how they were the raiser!

The table probably hesitates for all chips that aren't red? Tossing out a green to flat/limp the SB would probably cause the BB to clarify. GL

Last edited by answer20; 08-14-2020 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:41 AM   #53
DCJ001
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

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Originally Posted by steamraise View Post
The rule couldn't be more clear. If you can remove one chip and there's not enough for a call, it's a call.

We don't check your stack to determine what you're thinking.
Should I also check to see if you owe the waitress and need change?

The rule is clear. Not all rooms use it.
If you pull back chips you are committed to at least a call.

Here's a question guys.
What's a dealer to do when it's limped to the SB and he tosses in an
oversize chip, and everyone calls the raise before I can say anything
?
But this is not a raise.

If this a $1/$3 no limit game, and if the action is limped to the SB, and if the SB tosses a $100 check forward, and if the BB pushes forward a stack of $5 checks totaling $101, the BB has raised to $101 after the SB called $3.

Last edited by DCJ001; 08-14-2020 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 08-14-2020, 06:25 PM   #54
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

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Originally Posted by mrmr View Post
I never had any problems with it, but honestly all this aside, I think pulling back of chips already committed to the pot is a little bit of a gray area that I don't think is totally clearly covered by the rules I glanced through in this thread.
In some situations that might matter, but not here. That should be a call anyway, no matter if he takes the chips back or leaves them in the pot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by steamraise View Post
Here's a question guys.
What's a dealer to do when it's limped to the SB and he tosses in an
oversize chip, and everyone calls the raise before I can say anything?
Unless I'm missing something, that's a limp by SB followed by a raise by BB and a couple of calls. Action is on SB and he can decide to call the raise or fold and get change for his oversized chip.
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Old 08-15-2020, 09:44 AM   #55
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

I think steam's point is that everyone thought SB raised, so BB's raise was in fact meant to be a call of SB's "raise". But BB and others after him did that before dealer was able to clarify that SB didn't raise and had only called the limp. So would they be able to backtrack and give BB his option again, or are they stuck with the BB raise and subsequent calls? And I believe the answer is that it's too late and they're stuck (significant action occurred, action offered and accepted, etc).
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Old 08-15-2020, 10:20 AM   #56
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

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Your book and what you can or cannot imagine aren't the determining factors though. I'm not calling you dumb or stupid and I'm not saying that your argument is in bad faith. I'm just suggesting that sometimes our intuition doesn't match with how things are.

With the chips he placed in the pot, it is literally ambiguous as to whether it is a call or a raise. He could be trying to call, or he could be trying to raise. Because his intentions are not clear, we go with the lesser amount because we're not mind readers and we have to be consistent with how we rule these things.
I agree with your point (but not that I'm arguing in bad faith). I was not saying what I think the official rule is, I was giving my impression, what I would think if I were at the table and that happened.

Now I just have to wonder, am I remembering things wrong, or 15 years ago would I have been right, or is this just one of those weird things were midway through your life you realize you've been mispronouncing a word or something like that and somehow you never noticed before!?

Anyway, as to the other question, about the small blind's call being mistaken for a raise... The general rule I've seen applied in that situation is that if someone (mainly the dealer, but could be anyone at the table) put a stop to it after the big blind "called" then the mistake could have been undone. But after the second person called, it is considered too late to change it. It might be different if it were some gross violation of the rules, or someone has 3 cards in hold 'em, etc., but for a bet or bet size misunderstanding, it just stays in place, mistakes happen.
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Old 08-15-2020, 11:29 PM   #57
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

This situation involves adults competing for money, and everyone who is competing should understand the rules.

Right?
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Old 08-16-2020, 04:50 AM   #58
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

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Originally Posted by mrmr View Post
Anyway, as to the other question, about the small blind's call being mistaken for a raise... The general rule I've seen applied in that situation is that if someone (mainly the dealer, but could be anyone at the table) put a stop to it after the big blind "called" then the mistake could have been undone. But after the second person called, it is considered too late to change it. It might be different if it were some gross violation of the rules, or someone has 3 cards in hold 'em, etc., but for a bet or bet size misunderstanding, it just stays in place, mistakes happen.
A good floor isn't letting the small blind watch multiple people behind him call "his" raise and then let him contend that it was a call and that the big blind was the raiser for that exact amount and that he should have the option to call, fold or raise. The small blind needs to speak up to protect their action in a spot like t his (if they indeed wanted it to be a call). It just opens up angles. The problem with the floor allowing it to be just a call in this spot is that if you allow the small blind to fold for the rest, you're opening up the door for him to freeroll stealing all the preflop action when no one calls (and he can just fold and relinquish the call amount if it doesn't work)


This is one of the reasons when I deal, I always say "Call" or "Calls xxx" when someone puts chips in a pot in a manner that might be confusing to some. I will admit that I have found myself in situations like steamraise above mentioned where I missed the chance and now we have a table full of 'called raises' and I mostly just move forward with the thought of action offered and accepted and pray that no one argues otherwise before I get a flop out. Sometimes you'll be met with that one player that makes eye contact with you and you just shrug at them and smile

Last edited by Lord_Crispen; 08-16-2020 at 04:57 AM.
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Old 08-16-2020, 12:16 PM   #59
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Re: One Chip Rule - Call or Raise?

I agree that avoiding opening up lots of potential for angle shooting is a big part of why the "call" (i.e. the call of a call-that-was-mistaken-for-a-raise) becomes a real call once other players act on it. Of course, this introduces its own potential angles.
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