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Old 04-17-2021, 07:07 AM   #26
madlex
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by BallyHigh View Post
It folds around and the small blind now says, "that was a call, can I get my change?"
Dealer responds ďthat was a raise. Would you like for me to call for the floor to explain the rule?Ē

FWIW, I hope they adjust the addendum for rule 46 in a way that clearly addresses the situation where the old already covers the bet.
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:34 AM   #27
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Re: One chip rule?

IMO, the SB's intent in the OP is:

1) Raise (80%)
2) Angle (15%)
3) Weird way to make change (5%)

I remember having done this in the past at least a couple of times (swaping chips from the SB when my 5$ chip already covered the straddle) and it was always treated as a raise without need to clarify.
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Old 04-17-2021, 04:42 PM   #28
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
If I was the dealer, I would announce ďraise to 25Ē. If anyone objects, including the player who put out the chip, Iíd call for the floor to let him handle it.
Making an incorrect ruling and forcing players to object is an awful way to handle this. Say "call" like you're supposed to, then call the floor if someone wants clarification.
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Old 04-17-2021, 05:20 PM   #29
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by trob888 View Post
Making an incorrect ruling and forcing players to object is an awful way to handle this. Say "call" like you're supposed to, then call the floor if someone wants clarification.
Actual dealers commented in this thread that the situation would be ruled a raise in their card room.

As I said in the part you didnít quote, thereís no uniform opinion on how to rule in that situation and I wouldnít be surprised to see it ruled differently by two different floors in the same room.

I donít know where the ď100%Ē or ďlike youíre supposed toĒ stuff is coming from but I donít think thatís an appropriate way to discuss a question like this.
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Old 04-17-2021, 10:30 PM   #30
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by trob888 View Post
Making an incorrect ruling and forcing players to object is an awful way to handle this. Say "call" like you're supposed to, then call the floor if someone wants clarification.
Hey, an actual instance of begging the question. Did you read the thread?
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Old 04-18-2021, 02:08 PM   #31
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by trob888 View Post
Making an incorrect ruling and forcing players to object is an awful way to handle this. Say "call" like you're supposed to, then call the floor if someone wants clarification.
Provide your justification to claim an error. I believe your position is in the minority for a good reason
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Old 04-18-2021, 03:31 PM   #32
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
The problem is that rule 46 changes things. But the specific wording it uses doesn't perfectly clearly indicate it covers this scenario.

It's not fully clear whether this is supposed to cover this case, because it uses the phrase "the combined final chip bet", and in this case there is only a single chip in that "final" bet.

But absent a rule that more directly applies, I would use this rule as being the governing rule, and rule it a raise to $25. It is more specific than rule 44, covering the case where the player had previously bet chips not yet pulled in, so I would say it overrules the more general rule 44 which would indicate that it would be ruled a call.
Bravo! I had to make a ruling on this exact situation last night.

Spoiler:
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Old 04-18-2021, 03:45 PM   #33
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by checkraisdraw View Post
Rule 44

ďIf facing a bet or blind, pushing out a single oversized chip (including your last chip) is a call if raise isnít first declared.
But he didn't just push out an oversized chip.
He removed his blind, which would have covered the call, and replaced it with an oversized chip.
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Old 04-19-2021, 05:45 PM   #34
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by Robot9999 View Post
1 2 nl hold em game. $5 straddle on under the gun.
3 players call $5. action gets to the small blind who has a red $5 chp out
for his $1 blind.the small blind pulls back the $5 chip and throws out a
green $25 chip without saying anything.

is this a call or a raise?
Quote:
Originally Posted by checkraisdraw View Post
It's 100% a call.
If so, what is the purpose of pulling back the $5 chip and throwing out a green $25 chip without saying anything?

Last edited by DCJ001; 04-19-2021 at 06:00 PM.
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Old 04-21-2021, 02:59 PM   #35
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
If so, what is the purpose of pulling back the $5 chip and throwing out a green $25 chip without saying anything?
Possibly he is angle shooter. Iím thinking if everyone folds, it was a raise. But if someone behind him shoved he may fold and try to claim it was just a call. It may have been totally innocent as well. Not sitting in there and not having any kind of read on this person would be just guessing I suppose. Hell I didnít know there was even a standardized set of rules out there lol. Donít play tournaments, so I was in the dark when peopleís started making reference to rule 40 something and rule 40 something another else. Lol
It just donít figure for someone thatís been playing for very long to do this and believe it to be anything other than a raise in the joints I play in.
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Old 04-21-2021, 07:44 PM   #36
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
If so, what is the purpose of pulling back the $5 chip and throwing out a green $25 chip without saying anything?
Unfortunately intention doesn't count.

But if it did matter there could be conflicting intentions here. The player could be intending to raise. The player could be intending to get change.

This is why intentions don't matter.

Also as noted before it could be an angle. If everyone folds the player gets the pot. If he gets raised (or called) he can claim to have just called.

Whatever the rule is for the room, it has to be upheld regardless of any stated intention.
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Old 04-22-2021, 09:33 AM   #37
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Re: One chip rule?

We 'finally' found a spot where a 'single silent' chip can be disputed!

While it's understandable to expect this to be ruled either way I tend towards a raise. But only due to a technicality, so to speak.

While Players can 'chip play/stage' to gauge opponent reaction prior to completing their action, does 'un-calling' take this too far?

Technically this Player has to 'check', raise or fold as they are already committed to a 'call' amount. When we examine rules pertaining to pulling back chips the one common theme is that a Player has committed to a call at a minimum while also having the option to raise.

When a Player pulls back all their chips do we now eliminate one of the 'acceptable' calling actions simply because they were already committed to a calling amount? Perhaps we do, but maybe we don't.

I think the key here is that the chip changed denominations. If this Player had already had a $25 out there for the BB and 'simply' pulled it back in a motion to toss it into the middle, then it's a call (check), change coming. I don't think anyone here would dispute this ruling.

But since the effort went into exchanging the chip 'for no reason' then I want to eliminate any potential angle and rule that it was done 'for a (poker) reason', that being to raise. The change in denomination is needed for me since the Player could pull back the $25 and pause and then simply toss it back in silently. This is a call since no 'exchange' of chips occurred. If it's a call 'without' a pause, it should be a call 'with' a pause.

Take it a step further and now the Player has a $25 out there for the $5 blind, pulls it back and then tossing in $100. The same 'no reason-reason' applies here and I'm raising this to $100, max amount.

While the Player could angle a fake argument that they really didn't mean to raise (when they really did, ala AA), I'm keying in on the 'changing' of the chips.

What if the Player pulls back a $25 and puts out a $10? Still a raise IMO. GL
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Old 04-23-2021, 01:11 PM   #38
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Re: One chip rule?

And the poor dealer who now has to verify both the presence and values of all chips in play area at all times, and also know what the player pulled back, or if he even did.

Likely scenario, dealer sees one chip, didn't hear "Raise.", announces "Call." and action moves on...
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Old 04-23-2021, 02:13 PM   #39
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by AzOther1 View Post
And the poor dealer who now has to verify both the presence and values of all chips in play area at all times
I thought that every (competent) dealer verifies presence and value of chips in front of SB/BB/straddle when pitching them cards? That seems to be part of the routine. Especially since they have to tell players stuff like "blinds please" all the time.
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Old 04-23-2021, 03:27 PM   #40
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by AzOther1 View Post
Likely scenario, dealer sees one chip, didn't hear "Raise.", announces "Call." and action moves on...
He's the SB. If I didn't see him exchange the chip, when it was his action, I'm gonna wait for him to act.
He can knuckle the table or say call or raise, or toss his cards and wait for change.
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Old 05-03-2021, 05:36 PM   #41
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Re: One chip rule?

This is an interesting situation... I would think that most dealers would interpret this as a call and announce a call.

Personally I think by pulling back the $5 chip and then replacing it with a $25 chip, I think the intent is to raise the bet but its ambiguous because of the silence.
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Old 05-04-2021, 01:52 AM   #42
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Re: One chip rule?

Raise in my card room. Small blind already covers the bet so there's no need to mess with it unless you intend to raise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
Logically, using the bigger chip only serves to slow the game down
Rules first, speed later. Floor calls slow the game down even more than playing by a very specific set of rules.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:04 AM   #43
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by DisRuptive1 View Post
Raise in my card room. Small blind already covers the bet so there's no need to mess with it unless you intend to raise.
The common counter example for this argument is

'Blinds are T25\T50. It limps to the small blind. SB has tons of T25 chips in front of him, but he tosses in a T100 chip without making a declaration.'

This is considered a textbook call. But the same argument 'I had plenty of appropriate size chips for the call, why would I toss out a bigger chip unless I intend to raise?' is always asked.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:09 AM   #44
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Re: One chip rule?

The issue is not "why would I throw out this chip, when I could have thrown out that chip."

The issue is "why did I throw out any chip when I didn't have to."

You're right, the rules could be written to support your example also being just a call, but they aren't. It's a call if you throw out an oversize chip when facing a bet or raise higher than the chips you have out there. It's a raise if you already have enough out there to make the call. Verbalize your action if you want to be sure to avoid confusion.
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Old 05-04-2021, 10:56 AM   #45
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Re: One chip rule?

I won a hundo bet on this being a raise irl. Just went with most trusted floor in the room at the time as arbiter.
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Old 05-04-2021, 11:10 AM   #46
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Re: One chip rule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
'Blinds are T25\T50. It limps to the small blind. SB has tons of T25 chips in front of him, but he tosses in a T100 chip without making a declaration.'
I guess we are assuming that SB had a T25 out there already and then enter the 'single silent' 'too large' chip when action was on them. Currently this is only a call since the original chip doesn't cover the BB.

Even if the Player put out the larger chip and pulled back the smaller one .. still only a call if done without a verbal/visual declaration indicating a raise.


Possible derail, but I've been an advocate of 'always' first taking the total of multiple bet chips into consideration before applying any of the other rules. Then this would be a raise and we 'quickly' move on without needing to do any other math. Thus forcing the Player to declare their action more often and saving the Dealer/Floor from trying to get a proper (or wrong) ruling in place while most of the table is trying to explain their version of the 2-4 rules that possibly apply .. and apply them in the right order. GL
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Old 05-06-2021, 12:52 AM   #47
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Re: One chip rule?

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Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
I've been an advocate of 'always' first taking the total of multiple bet chips into consideration before applying any of the other rules.
This seems like your ruling would be more inline with the player's intent. In the situation where a player throws a T100 chip onto his small blind and not do anything else, I've never seen them wanting it to be a call, they always want it to be a raise and get upset when told about the 1-chip rule.
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Old 05-07-2021, 11:42 AM   #48
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Re: One chip rule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
'I had plenty of appropriate size chips for the call, why would I toss out a bigger chip unless I intend to raise?
Maybe you think the big chip is unlucky and want change so all your chips are the same.

Quote:
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they always want it to be a raise and get upset when told about the 1-chip rule.
Not always.
When they get upset they probably learn and don't do that in the future.
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Old 05-08-2021, 06:29 AM   #49
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Re: One chip rule?

Steamraise, you got me thinking.

What if we’re in a room where OOT raises stand if the action doesn’t change. A player makes the chip swap from 5 to 25 before it’s his turn. Action limps to him. Is this a raise? If not, what if he did it right before the button folded? If it is a raise, what if he switched it from a 5 to a 25 back to a 5 before it’s his turn?

IMO if the replacement is a raise when it’s his turn it should be a raise in all situations before his turn given a binding OOT action rule.
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Old 05-12-2021, 12:46 PM   #50
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Re: One chip rule?

An aside on the "why would I throw out a big chip when I have lots of small chips" thing. Every night I have players with multiple stacks of $5 chips throw out a $25 chip or even a $100 chip for a $5 call, just bc they want all red chips or dont want to keep track of a single black chip. A giant PITA.
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