Hey all, have a quick rules quesiton about something that happened in a tourney yesterday. Ok so first level and I 3bet ak and one player calls in position. I check flop jj9, he bets 2k and I think for 20-25 seconds. He puts his cards over the line as I’m thinking like a muck almost but his hand on the cards as a way of telling my to hurry?

Can I angle here and min raise and call this a muck or nah? I’m going to guess no if he has control or hand on the card? I found it kinda rude to do by him and just wanted to see how that works out? I’ve never seen someone put there hand over the betting line when someone had cards and was thinking about a hand.

Room rules apply, but in general no. Maybe in some rooms with a hard, enforced betting line, but this would include very few rooms.

If he is still holding the cards, it is never a muck. A muck is generally discarding them forward, usually when facing action or at showdown. In this case even if he had let go of them prior to you making a minraise, he is not facing action, you are the one facing action, so most likely his cards would be returned to him unless they became unidentifiable and mixed in with the muck or other player's cards.

Side advice: don't be a dirtbag angleshooter and try to get people's hands declared dead when you obviously know they weren't intending to muck. It's not good for the game, and it's generally not good for you as a player, long term, to become known as an angle shooter.

If you think he's being rude, ask him to stop, or ask the dealer to handle it. Or just ignore it, people will try to tilt you, your best play is to be impervious to it.

Thanks for this reply dinesh. I didn't per se think it was a muck but could be close. I've never seen someone put their cards over the betting line prior to a player's action. It def looked like I was folding and just pondering.

BTW this player was rude and I think angle shooting said player would be fair. It wasn't like this was a "fun recreational player" that doesn't know the rules. This guy was a massive douche.

Not a muck. It's a posturing thing some players do. He's basically saying "I know you're going to fold, just do it already!"

Ignore it and play your hand.

Unless the room has some weird, horrible house rules that's not even remotely close to a muck.

The guy is moving his cards around in front of him, nothing more. We have to take your word for it that he did it in a rude manner. Even if he did that's no reason to shoot an angle. I also wouldn't try to pull an angle that most of the time results in me losing chips, but that's obviously your prerogative.

If you were thinking of calling him out for "mucking", it wouldn't have held up on a ruling. He never lost control of his cards, and he wasn't even facing any action.

OK, there are two defintions that are getting confused. A fold and a muck.

A fold is a declaration, verbal or non-verbal, of your intent to forfeit your claim on a pot when facing action. A fold is almost always binding.

A muck is when the hand is killed by being mixed unidentifiable with the muck pile.

Also, the betting line is for bets. It is not a folding line in most casinos. Most casino's rule hands folded only if verbally declared, or if discarded, face down, towards the dealer, when facing action.

So, your question 'Is this a muck?' Of course not. He has control of his cards, they are identifiable. They are not mucked

The real question is 'If I move action to him, can his placement of cards be considered a fold?' Unless the room is atypical, no. Just having your cards placed across the betting line does not usually constitute an intent to fold. It could be more ambiguous if he moved his hand forward in a folding motion when action was on him but never released them, but the situation you described is, in most rooms, never a fold.

And, as mentioned above, don't be that guy trying to win hands by angleshooting. That is scummy behavior. Now, if this player is constantly doing stuff like this as an angle in itself, you can respond. But hovering around, waiting for a player to make a minor mistake of procedure so you can start yelling 'His hand is dead' is no way to go through life.

It's not.

Angle shooting is never fair.

Yeah OP, if it could only be a muck in the very rare room with very strange rules, and if you say it could be a muck in your room, then why the heck are you asking us? You are in the better position to know.

If your thought process begins with "Can I angle him here" maybe you should work on your own ethics instead of poker.

I've seen this plenty .. "I know you don't have a Jack, good fold." while cards are getting ready to muck. Let's move on, you're taking up everyone's time.

Unfortunately this could be a bluff or an antic to get you to call. IME he's got at least a 9x or pp.

These types can be distracting to play with and as suggested, stick to you game .. especially in the early stages of a tournament where you might be 'stuck' with him for a while. You may want to be a bit more trappy if HU.

As far a fold/muck .. very very very unlikely you can find a Floor to agree with you. AND all the focus will now be turned onto you for attempting what's got to be one of the thinnest angles I heard of.

Don't mind the crowd telling you to watch your own P's & Q's. We are all human, and we all (even for the slightest moment) can't help but think about spots and consequences that go with them. Like the sudden addition of a bus line just outside the bathroom a Player like this uses for break. But let's keep it simple and just hope that you get 99 in a spot like this with him having Jx and it doesn't run out 22! GL

Lol ofc it's not a muck if the rules of the room allows him to do it why not? Especially if he did a bet how can he muck. It's not the best behavior at the table but what can we do.

I don't play many tournys' but see this in cash a lot

I always stop' sit up straight and ask the dealer loudly "IS HE MUCKING?"

if the dealer looks at me and says he checked I say looks as though he's mucking and still his action please clarify and ask him?


drawing attention to a douche usually stops it

This is usually the best response to an 'ambiguous action' angle. Speak directly to the dealer to have him clarify the action. Do it every time, even when action is not on you (as long as you are in the hand, you should have standing to have the players action clarified). I do it usually in a non-accusatory, friendly, 'I just want the game to run smooth' tone, but it becomes obvious enough if the same person is consistently using improper or ambiguous gestures to imply action without committing to it.

Well, in this instance the dealer would look pretty confused and tell you that action has been on you for half a minute and everyone is waiting for you to finally do something.

I've seen this move in cash games quite a bit and have found/observed that it's a good sign that they usually have it.

That's a really common action, and it's no more than the equivalent of someone stacking chips as if he is going to bet when action isnt on him yet. There is no "ambiguous action" to clarify. No one makes a bet, and then mucks before the other player has even taken an action yet. In a tourney if that happened I'd accuse the guy of chip dumping. Sure, if the person called he may instamuck his bluff. But muck immediately after a bet without any action from other player? Never. I'd be more inclined to view the "is that a muck" question as an angle from the Other player than anything else.

Why would you do this instead of just acting. Everybody wants you to act.

Yeah, I agree, you're basically saying you WANT him to muck.

If his hands are on the cards its absolutely not a muck.

I had a hand a couple years ago in a WSOP Circuit Main Event where the river went check, check and I turned my hand over. My opponent mucked his hand and the dealer grabbed them and had them near the muck but separate, technically touching the muck when the guy said "wait i have a straight" It was like a K78TJ board. I objected and said the hand is in the muck. The dealer called the floor and because the cards were clearly recoverable, his hand was still live and the dealer turned over his K9 and he took the pot.

I had another hand where I bluffed the river and got called and turned my hand over with confidence and he pushed his hand forward letting go, starting to muck, but then realized I had air and quickly flipped his hand over before the dealer touched the cards. I didn't even call the floor for that one as I knew his cards would still be live.

Bottom line: The last thing the floors want to do is kill a recoverable hand, regardless of some of the technicalities.

wow just wow

The fact that you called it an angle is the answer in itself.

I see people do this all the time. It's slightly rude but he's not actually angling you at all. It's just some live showmanship, and people that do stuff like this are usually terrible. Don't tap the tank, just make your decision and move on.

I don't ever intentionally angle. I think it is immoral regardless of the fact that it is technically within the rules.

But if morality doesn't matter to you then you are picking the wrong angle. Just pretend to fold by flicking your wrist while holding on to your cards and see if he mucks his hand into the muck pile which would make it dead.

The thing is that if he releases his cards it won't mean that he is folding. His hand will be considered mucked only if it touches another card in the muck pile. And even then it won't be considered dead in some rooms if it is still 100% identifiable as his hand. Floors will likely give your opponent a lot of leeway here against an angleshooter.

Just know that whether this succeeds or not people who saw it will not trust you ever again and it might cause you to have a reputation.

More important question: is that action (pushing his cards forward like he knows you're folding) a sign of strength or weakness?

IME it's more often a sign of strength. Thoughts?