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Old 03-16-2012, 01:03 PM   #26
yannicktc
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by LOL POT-ODDS View Post
how you could win even a 1 dollar sit n go is beyond me
He must do something right.

The funny thing is that I tought to myself after watching this vid: "Since he is a pro with good results, what could he possibly been thinking?" and now he is posting here . Still I don't know what to think of this hand. Maybe this shows that these kind of structures arent "real poker" or do you level yourself by taking this structure too far? I don't know but it still doesnt feel right. But tnx for your post.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:25 PM   #27
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

Meh on that board and based on the preflop action, trips was clearly the nuts there.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:04 PM   #28
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by Andy Frankenberger View Post
But Luke is Luke – we all know he’s not on these shows for his poker prowess.
Dude what? Luke is one of the top HU NLHE in the world. He's crushed 25/50 for years =\
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:05 PM   #29
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

Andy,
Thanks for the info regarding the nature of the tourney & your thought process --- it was helpful.
I know you know it, but I'll say it anyway ---- give no regard to these hater kids who have never been to a WPT let alone won one.
Your addition to the community is welcomed.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:22 PM   #30
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

So the guy makes a single bad play on television out of his entire highly successful poker career. Give him a break.
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Old 03-16-2012, 05:32 PM   #31
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by LOL POT-ODDS View Post
LOL if that really is frankenburger...

trying to justify your thought process when really all that happened was "OMG I HAZ TRIPS TIME TO TARP HIM"

how you could win even a 1 dollar sit n go is beyond me
Maybe that's why he's playing, and you're watching, stuck in your world where everything is an inside joke and every poker hand you play is "lol standard".
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Old 03-16-2012, 06:53 PM   #32
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

He had a well thought out gameplan that took into consideration the unique format of the tournament. He stuck to his strategy and won the tournament even though he missed a c-bet and Mizzi didn't facilitate a check raise.

He missed some value(possibly not a great deal) by taking a "non standard" line and it wasn't catastrophic. Imo his thought process and overall results speak for themselves.

It's interesting that he even found the need to defend himself but it's great that big time winning players share their sometimes unconventional thinking.
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:02 PM   #33
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by Andy Frankenberger View Post
<< sure it does... i didn't have as big of a lead to *start* the hand as i did after the hand (or what i expected to have after the hand). the more chips i got, the more i could go into semi-lockdown mode (not gonna completely shut it down, but could afford to lean toward conservatism). if you want to find fault with anything about the pre-flop action, how about Sorel not 4 betting 99 there? the reason he didn't do it? the double card. using the double card in the very first event put HUGE pressure on him not to bust first -- a big tactical mistake for him and the 2 others who used their card in event 1 IMO. with this pressure in mind, i thought i could apply pressure in position and steal pre-flop...
if this is the case, why check the flop?
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Old 03-16-2012, 07:35 PM   #34
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by Blizzuff View Post
Maybe that's why he's playing, and you're watching, stuck in your world where everything is an inside joke and every poker hand you play is "lol standard".
lol wut

sounds like u mad brah. why dont u go hug andys nuts some more
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:27 PM   #35
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Maybe that's why he's playing, and you're watching, stuck in your world where everything is an inside joke and every poker hand you play is "lol standard".
lookslikewegotabadasshere.jpg
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Old 03-16-2012, 08:57 PM   #36
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by Andy Frankenberger View Post
It’s easy to criticize, especially in a forum like this. I’ve never been afraid of criticism, or of going against popular wisdom. I was fully aware when I made that play that it would draw criticism, but I did it anyway for reasons which I’m happy to explain. I am sure there are some of you out there who are going to jump at the opportunity to criticize regardless of my reasoning (haters be hating), while some of you are actually curious about why I played the hand the way I did. To the latter group, which I would hope would be the majority of the people who take the time to follow 2+2, please -- read on…

The point structure of the tournament had everything to do with my decision to play the hand the way I did. It was not a cash game, it was not a standard sit and go. The 12 players in the tournament were split into 2 groups of six. We played three heats vs. this group of six, one heat in each of NLH, PLO, and PLH. In each heat, the tournament paid the following number of points based on finishing 6th to 1st place: zero, 1, 2, 3, [BIG GAP] 6, 8. So coming in 2nd place got twice as many points as coming in 3rd. There was also a “double card.” A player could use their double card in one of the three heats, and they had to announce before the heat that they were using the card. To these players, the point payout structure for 6th to 1st was (obviously) zero, 2, 4, 6, [HUGE GAP] 12, 16. Three players used this event, which was the first event – Sorel, Ben, and Andrew. Long story short, there was a HUGE point gap between the first four places and the top two.

Have a look at minute 2:33, the chip counts at the time. I had a massive chip lead going into the hand in question, and I knew that if I could hold on to my chip lead and finish 1st or 2nd in this heat, not only would I win 6 or 8 points, but I would prevent at least two of those three players using their double card from a crucial score of 12 or 16. This would put me in great shape to make the final table (after the 3 heats, the 3 players with the most points advanced to the final table).

Think about how you would play in a satellite tournament with 6 people where there were two seats up for grabs and the bottom four spots paid practically nothing… Are you going to look to get max value in every spot when you have one of the two seats virtually locked up? That’s how I looked at this structure, and this perspective certainly helped me win the tournament.
This is a good/interesting point, thanks for sharing.

Quote:
Do I think I played the hand perfectly? Not at all. I’ve played poker professionally for just over 2 years, and I am certainly still learning. In retrospect, against a tough player like Sorel, betting the flop is the better play because the strong player assumes I’m C-betting every flop, even when I miss. I hadn’t played much against Sorel at the time, so I didn’t know much about his game other than I perceived him to be aggressive, the kind of guy who is better to let hang himself.
I disagree with this, it's way too simplistic reasoning. The idea you can check because he's aggro is flawed because:

1) Like you said, Sorel has a brain and knows you rep a stronger range when you check back.
2) Sorel's not looking to bluff off his stack. Ever. No way. So your check doesn't get value from air.

Quote:
There are PLENTY of players out there who would take the bait and lead out on the turn, but Sorel didn’t do that. As for my decision to check back the turn, say what you want, but once I decided to check back the flop, I felt that checking back the turn to continue to look weak was the right play in hopes of him catching a card or barreling on the river. I didn't want him to fold assuming I hit a K. When Sorel bet out on the river, I knew I had made a mistake to check back the flop, but I ultimately decided that I was unlikely to get called by a worse hand, and in the off chance that he caught a hand that beat me, I was never folding to his shove… That last decision to simply call his bet on the flop had EVERYTHING to do with the point structure, where, again, with my massive chip lead, I was virtually assured of locking up first or second place in the heat. There was A LOT more downside to me losing a big pot in the off chance that I was beat than there was in winning the marginal chips. I had only 2 points to gain if I went from 2nd to 1st place, whereas I had up to 6 point of downside if I lost that pot. Of even greater importance, if I surrendered the 2nd place finish, another player using their double card could jump from 6 to 12 points just by moving from 3rd to 2nd.
I don't agree that any young/competent tourney pro is ever "taking the bait". You'd need someone with 0 hand reading ability and 0 understanding of the tourney structure to induce bluffs.

Quote:
But Luke is Luke – we all know he’s not on these shows for his poker prowess.
If you think this is the case I'm sure Luke would be willing to play you online at any stake you want for as long as you want.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:53 PM   #37
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edge of the world View Post
This is a good/interesting point, thanks for sharing.


I disagree with this, it's way too simplistic reasoning. The idea you can check because he's aggro is flawed because:

1) Like you said, Sorel has a brain and knows you rep a stronger range when you check back.
2) Sorel's not looking to bluff off his stack. Ever. No way. So your check doesn't get value from air.


I don't agree that any young/competent tourney pro is ever "taking the bait". You'd need someone with 0 hand reading ability and 0 understanding of the tourney structure to induce bluffs.


If you think this is the case I'm sure Luke would be willing to play you online at any stake you want for as long as you want.
terrible hand analysis and bad attitude ripped to shreds in just a few sentences

nh sir
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:43 AM   #38
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

is Frankenberger a pro or a fish on a massive heater?
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:02 AM   #39
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

I think he went on a massive heater and decided he was good enough to quit his job and play professionally.
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Old 03-17-2012, 04:18 AM   #40
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Re:Schwartz's epic commentary & jesse mays not so epic commentary.

@ 38.40 " theres not that many 9s in the deck".
OUTSTANDING
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:30 AM   #41
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

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Originally Posted by sirswish6 View Post
if this is the case, why check the flop?
Once the flop came down with two 9's on it, he wasn't on the steal anymore. He had so much showdown value it wasn't a bluff anymore.
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Old 03-17-2012, 05:46 AM   #42
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

edge of the world won the thread imo.
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Old 03-17-2012, 06:27 AM   #43
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

Holy **** Frankenberger is awful.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:34 AM   #44
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Frankenberger View Post
It’s easy to criticize, especially in a forum like this. I’ve never been afraid of criticism, or of going against popular wisdom. I was fully aware when I made that play that it would draw criticism, but I did it anyway for reasons which I’m happy to explain. I am sure there are some of you out there who are going to jump at the opportunity to criticize regardless of my reasoning (haters be hating), while some of you are actually curious about why I played the hand the way I did. To the latter group, which I would hope would be the majority of the people who take the time to follow 2+2, please -- read on…

The point structure of the tournament had everything to do with my decision to play the hand the way I did. It was not a cash game, it was not a standard sit and go. The 12 players in the tournament were split into 2 groups of six. We played three heats vs. this group of six, one heat in each of NLH, PLO, and PLH. In each heat, the tournament paid the following number of points based on finishing 6th to 1st place: zero, 1, 2, 3, [BIG GAP] 6, 8. So coming in 2nd place got twice as many points as coming in 3rd. There was also a “double card.” A player could use their double card in one of the three heats, and they had to announce before the heat that they were using the card. To these players, the point payout structure for 6th to 1st was (obviously) zero, 2, 4, 6, [HUGE GAP] 12, 16. Three players used this event, which was the first event – Sorel, Ben, and Andrew. Long story short, there was a HUGE point gap between the first four places and the top two.

Have a look at minute 2:33, the chip counts at the time. I had a massive chip lead going into the hand in question, and I knew that if I could hold on to my chip lead and finish 1st or 2nd in this heat, not only would I win 6 or 8 points, but I would prevent at least two of those three players using their double card from a crucial score of 12 or 16. This would put me in great shape to make the final table (after the 3 heats, the 3 players with the most points advanced to the final table).

Think about how you would play in a satellite tournament with 6 people where there were two seats up for grabs and the bottom four spots paid practically nothing… Are you going to look to get max value in every spot when you have one of the two seats virtually locked up? That’s how I looked at this structure, and this perspective certainly helped me win the tournament.

Do I think I played the hand perfectly? Not at all. I’ve played poker professionally for just over 2 years, and I am certainly still learning. In retrospect, against a tough player like Sorel, betting the flop is the better play because the strong player assumes I’m C-betting every flop, even when I miss. I hadn’t played much against Sorel at the time, so I didn’t know much about his game other than I perceived him to be aggressive, the kind of guy who is better to let hang himself. There are PLENTY of players out there who would take the bait and lead out on the turn, but Sorel didn’t do that. As for my decision to check back the turn, say what you want, but once I decided to check back the flop, I felt that checking back the turn to continue to look weak was the right play in hopes of him catching a card or barreling on the river. I didn't want him to fold assuming I hit a K. When Sorel bet out on the river, I knew I had made a mistake to check back the flop, but I ultimately decided that I was unlikely to get called by a worse hand, and in the off chance that he caught a hand that beat me, I was never folding to his shove… That last decision to simply call his bet on the flop had EVERYTHING to do with the point structure, where, again, with my massive chip lead, I was virtually assured of locking up first or second place in the heat. There was A LOT more downside to me losing a big pot in the off chance that I was beat than there was in winning the marginal chips. I had only 2 points to gain if I went from 2nd to 1st place, whereas I had up to 6 point of downside if I lost that pot. Of even greater importance, if I surrendered the 2nd place finish, another player using their double card could jump from 6 to 12 points just by moving from 3rd to 2nd.

I’ve spoken with several pro’s whose opinions are QUITE different from Luke’s. But Luke is Luke – we all know he’s not on these shows for his poker prowess. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I have always been the kind of person who prefers to defend someone being criticized rather than join in, but that’s maybe that's just me. If you’re in the habit of ignoring the unique point structures of tournaments like this, I hope to see you at my table soon.
Do you even know what a thin value bet is, given his sizing here? My god, you're dreadful.
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Old 03-17-2012, 07:40 AM   #45
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

dont tap the aquarium imho
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:06 AM   #46
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

Yeah, quickly skimming through your posts (tl;dr, sorry ), on one hand you say that you don't expect Mizzi to get out of line because of his double up card (see: flat-calling with 99), on the other you say that you check back because you think it's likely for him to spaz and you want to let him to hang himself (your words).
You also say that you don't feel like it's necessary to play big pots with your position, but then you opt to 3-bet A7.
Post-flop, I think you agree that a c-bet would be optimal, holding top trips is no spot to pot control (which your analysis seems to indicate) and if you c-bet all hands that miss, you clearly want to maximize value by betting.
I never had an intention of questioning your quite stellar tournament record, but this hand was just played really poorly and I think most poker players would agree. Your analysis which puts emphasis on tournament structure doesn't convince me, you seem to be negating yourself on a lot of points. But hey, Im no pro, so maybe I"m wrong.
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Old 03-17-2012, 11:41 AM   #47
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

I’ve spoken with several pro’s whose opinions are QUITE different from Luke’s. But Luke is Luke – we all know he’s not on these shows for his poker prowess. .........


LOL i am on the shows for my poker prowess aswell as my enteratinament commentary and the rest , infact every single tv show i have always made the final table of excecpt that donkey mixed game 1 u also fluked . i would offer u a series of bets 1st about that hand that u played every street very wrong ( we could ask 5 ppl who are playing the premier league with us ) secondly we can do a last longer for up to 100k in the premier league we are about to play , thirdly not only did u play that hand bad but u are a monster whale who folds k6 to a 4 bb re shove when u have opened for 2.5 bb hu
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:01 PM   #48
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

LMFAO! in after schwartz
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:06 PM   #49
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

It also looked like Frankenberger tried to raise less than the minimum amount, unless I misunderstood the dealer chatter. If true, it seems like he may be a novice at this game. Does anyone know what games he got his bracelets in?
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:16 PM   #50
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Re: Mizzi vs Frankenberger (and Schwartz's epic commentary)

In before

OOooooooooooooooooosh.
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