To be fair, many times rules are established that do not incentivize people to be honest and direct. People rationally dig deeper because they have no incentive to stop.

For example, if this player knew as total certainty that this room had a zero-tolerance policy for mistakes like this, his options are to admit he has the cards (and get permabanned 100% of the time) or pretend he doesn't have them (and get permabanned 99% of the time, managing to dump them under the table or something 1% of thw time).

The solution is to have a dynamic range in punishment - so that people who admit they accidentally swiped cards get punished less than people who admit they intentionally swiped cards, who in turn get punished less than people caught swiping cards without admitting it.

But then the problem is that hard-liners will accuse you of tolerating theft if you give admitted thieves or admitted accident-causers anything less than a complete permaban.

OK so maybe two cards could be possibly picked up accidently , but four cards? Well I was not there so I guess anything is possible , but still seems remote to me. Still, in the end , the punishment was the same , regardless if it was intentional or not.

This is why they always say don't keep anything bigger than the size of a card [Cell phones/receipts/etc] on the table.

A player in my room had a dealer pitch a card perfectly under his players card, neither noticed, and the player pocketed it.

Same situation. Cameras caught it, and the player was banned even for this obvious accident. He was eventually allowed back, thankfully.

So one day I was dealing (it was my last night at this job and I was on the eo and planning on a few drinks as soon as I got off). Shufflemaster keeps telling me one deck is 2 short so I call the floor and hand off that deck to him telling him "its sticky". While I'm dealing with the other deck he counts them and its 2 cards short. He comes around the table looking around on the floor, under the rails etc.

I get pushed and he asks me what he should do. He is actually pretty experienced but he's gotten older and sometimes seems easily confused. So I suggest he might want to put a call into surveillance .... and now I'm off duty but I'm going to stick around a bit to see where this goes....

change into my street close and head back into the room. Surveillance has called him back and told him that a player scooped up the cards along with his players card when I swiped him in. The player in question is fairly drunk, a tourist but a casino dealer along with a large group of dealers on vacation (its possible he did it intentionally to see if he could get away with it). Conveniently that player is now racking up (cash out in this room is with the floor)

So as he gets to the front desk, the floor asks him for his players card (we don;t usually ask this for cash outs we are getting info). I'm standing behind the player and as he pulls out his wallet to get his players card .... I see the playing cards right in the wallet....... Before I say anything ..... floor mentions the cards and the player suddenly realizes he has them right in front of him and turns them over (says he doesn't remember taking them).

maybe this makes no difference but what were the cards? if it was a trash hand or they were not of high starting hand value wouldn't that further the case that it was purely accidental?

Also- to me it seems totally silly that anyone would actually try to keep cards/take them off the table purposefully to cheat - you are doing to slip those ****s back into your hand all sneaky and change them out through your shirt sleeve with noone noticing? wtf?

There's a middle spot between intentional and accidental - say someone grabs their player card and as they're putting it in their pocket they realize there are cards next to it. They look around and see that nobody noticed so they say nothing. Another hand plays out and still nobody says anything so they decide to keep them to use another day. They may not even remember what the cards were at this point.

A ban should still be considered in this case even though the cards may be weak and it started as an accident. Players need to speak up immediately if something like this happens, not wait until they are questioned.

Agreed 100%, also because it is much easier to proof that it happened accidentally if you adress the floor or dealer immediately once you realize the card is in your possession. Value of the card(s) really shouldnt matter at all

just here to say it's not illegal to cheat at gambling games. you wouldn't ring the police to get them to investigate your mate cheating at golf. same thing.

Think of all the money the taxpayer can save by getting rid of all those pesky Gaming Commissions!

not the same thing. being robbed by the room isn't the same as someone having an ace up the sleeve.

one is a service provider, they have responsibilities. gamblers have none and cheating is not illegal nor legally enforceable, not anywhere i know of anyway.

Go to blackjack table. Stick Ace up your sleeve. Report back with results.

that's you versus establishment. again, not same thing. they have rights and responsibilities as service providers. you vs some dude at poker table = not enforceable. no different to having someone cheat 'the rules of golf' in a paid tournament. the police can't do anything. 'the rules of the casino' or 'the rules of the game' aren't legally enforceable under actual law.

even when caught cheating casino withholds funds and bans you. shouldn't be a police matter.

Cheating other players in a regulated poker game is fraud and people have gone to jail for that.

Here’s somebody who got more than 3 years for cheating at WPT and Partouche events:
https://www.pokernews.com/news/2014/...-for-18790.htm

And yes, if somebody would cheat in a golf tournament and defraud other players by taking their fair share of the price pool, that’d be a crime and police would get involved.

Yeah, it's obviously criminal to cheat to steal money no matter the venue, it is a version of fraud or larceny depending on amounts. Players can also sue civily to recoup their money if they want to, but as with all things there is a question of whether it is worth it for prosecutors to pursue charges or you to pursue civil remedies.

This guy got 3 years for criminal mischief (plus 5 for counterfeiting) for using fake chips in a Borgata tournament several years back (he served six months):

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.car...ndal-37383/amp

yeah but read where i said rules of game. counterfeiting chips etc is obviously fraud. not same thing

So it's not illegal to cheat unless the method used to cheat is illegal. If you are not already being paid for your legal analysis, then you should be making some phone calls.

FYP

I guess you are just going to ignore the other example provided. That was based on a direct poker rule violation.

Even in the Borgata example the chips were tournament chips. The have no cash value and are used specifically and only for poker. So other than for violating tournament rules, it would not be illegal to copy them. The intent to introduce them into the tournament in violation of tournament rules was the crime.

Even if the act of counterfeiting those chips was a crime, it was not the crime he was convicted of.

This particular fraudulent act was both against the rules and illegal. Not all rules violation are illegal but obviously some are at least some times.

It might be best to delete the bump and following discussion. The assertion that cheating at a real money game in a casino isn’t illegal is just absurd and doesn’t add anything valuable to the original thread.

We had a card go missing the other day - 6 spades. Shuffler saw it. During the search for the card, players were asked to empty their pockets. One guys eyes got huge and the look on his face was priceless. It was in his wallet.

In the video you see him changing seats. As he's sitting down he tosses his player card to the dealer as the cards are coming out. The guy had his head turned and thought the 6s was his player card when it hit his hand and he put it in his wallet without looking.

Of course the hand was over so it was impossible to reconstruct anything, but everybody just razzed the guy and play resumed with a new deck.

The dealer got a spank for not realizing a card got picked up off the table.

1) Why is a Player's Card needed to change seats?
2) How did he get past only having one hole card to fold?
3) How does someone put something in their wallet without at least getting a glance at it?
4) Where did the Player's Card end up?

Nice that this was a cordial event, there was a thread where the Player was banned for basically the same scenario ... they didn't care that it was unintentional. GL

There was a situation like this many years ago at FW.

A table was broken and players were distributed to other main tables of the same game based on a single round of cards being dealt to each player.

One of the players accidentally took the card with her to the table she was moving to and it was thrown in to the muck.

Some time later (could be the next hand) one player had quad 4's (with 44 as the hole cards) and another player had trip 4's (with a single 4 in their hand).

I'm guessing this was before there were auto shufflers but I don't know. The woman who told me the story was the woman who brought the extra 4 to the table. And there was no penalty...

Sucks for the regular if he made mistake and panicked.

The part I found most interesting was the quality of the security tape. I’ve had many experiences at Foxwoods where something at the table went to the tape and they were unable make out things clearly. Yet in this case they can distinguish between slots in the wallet?

“Sorry, video was inconclusive” is also a nicer way of saying “I went to the back room for 5 minutes and played Candy Crush because nobody gives a ****”.

If you equip a poker room with cameras in 2019, the video is HD and I am pretty sure you can see details like slots in the wallet perfectly fine. If you equipped the room 20 years ago, that’s obviously not the case. Upgrading the systems is very expensive and doesn’t really provide a financial benefit for the poker room so casinos stretch their current equipment as long as possible. I am pretty sure surveillance in the high limit table games area is state of the art though.