This subthread would be an awesome branched thread BTW.

If there's a reasonable case to be made that the caller interpreted it that way, it should absolutely be ruled that way. Even drunk people don't get to throw out incoherent bets, get reads, and then take them back.

In this situation though it seems pretty clear the caller had no idea what was going on either. I could live with either ruling but nullifying the extra action seems best.

Good example of how, contrary to what many think, floors get paid to exercise judgment. They shouldn't speculate on what's in people's hearts without evidence but they 100% should judge the behaviors that reveal intentions with a high degree of accuracy.

No, because that's the only interpretation that makes it a legal bet, without need of fixing anything. I play mostly limit poker, but I've seen many hands where the action went like that, and both players were very clear that it was a dark turn bet and call.

I like this thread because we quickly move on. Two pages of people calling me an idiot after posting a mildlyinteresting but ultimately unremarkable ruling would not be awesome.

Well, maybe it would. Ok, I concede!

We've pretty much established that none of the parties, Dealer nor Players, were 'clear' here as described. I'm not going to dispute rulings that declare that the chips crossed the line or 'action given and accepted' apply and onto the River we go. But I also agree that Floor's need to be given the freedom to assess the spot and within reason try to steer the ship back on course. GL

PS .. Yes, you do have to always consider the 'next time' and damaging precedent. The bigger issue is that Players are more inclined to act like a youth, claiming that 'Well, Susie got one, why can't I?' instead of seeing the subtle differences from spot to spot. Do you still track how many more slushies your sibling got than you did from Mom? This is not a dig at chillrob, it's a dig at human nature to 'keep score'.

I looked for the LC thread and couldn't find it. I did find the 2017 one which seems to have lasted through July 6 but, heck, it's 2018 so I guess we should start a new one. Am I supposed to bring cake?

===

So this is just 90% a frustration post but if you have any suggestions or feedback I'm all ears.

Cliff's: I get called for a table change out of a 6-handed game. While I'm moving, the game breaks, they card for five other seats including mine. Won't give me the opportunity to draw for an open seat. Acting shift mgr goes on a power trip, tells me I'm on the waiting list.



Playing in my local 1-3 PLO, they have four tables going, and several people including me are signed up for a table change. They call me for a table change even though my table's six handed (!) so I go up to the podium. But wait, they say, we don't have a seat for you that we thought we had. Go back to the table and keep that game going and we'll let you know when we have a seat.

Meanwhile, when I get back to the table, they've decided to break the game and card for seats at other tables. They've already completed this process and apparently there were five open seats counting the one I'd been called for. Players have already gone off looking for their new seats. Shouldn't we come back and recard with me involved? Nope, can't do that.

I go back to the podium to figure out what on earth is going on. They say, "We'll add you at the top of the list." I clarify: You mean I get my choice of the five open seats, the ace of spades or whatever chooses second, etc., right? "No. You don't make the rules. You can be top of the list."

Again, I clarify. "You pulled me out of a game. When you say top of the list, you mean I'll be seated in a new game, right? You realize I didn't even get to card for a new seat."

"No, those seats are already taken. You can wait and be first up. I have to run the room and don't have time to talk about it. The room mgr will be available Monday if you want to talk to him."

Me: "Look, I'm forgiving and I know [room mgr] is good about owning it when you guys screw something up. Just apologize for what you did here, I'll go on top of the list, we'll be good."

"Have a good night."

I went upstairs (where my new table was supposed to be) to tell a friend good night. I see one of the guys who carded for my seat putting chips down. In other words, the horse wasn't out of the barn. This would have been totally rectifiable in a competent room. Just go find the three of clubs (or whatever) who may not even have sat down, apologize to me profusely for screwing up my choice of tables, and put me first on the table change list.
===

This "shift mgr" was like an ad hoc shift manager, maybe even an up-dealer cross-trained as a floor or something. I'll call the room mgr Monday. I know him moderately well, good guy. I expect he'll be interested in knowing how things go down on a Friday night. There was another dealer watching all of this who can confirm that I wasn't yelling or cursing (although justifiably kind of upset over the situation).

But... sheesh. Never mind how incompetent you have to be as a floor/brush to grant a table change out of a 6h and break a game. It doesn't even matter if this happened to me or someone else, it's pretty amateur hour. You pull a player out of a game, card for seats, and tell him to go on the list? That's just insulting.

I'll bite ... Not sure the Mods will close 2017 thread for this one, but maybe.

I assume you've been around and this is a legit rant for something that looks pretty crazy. How did all this happen so quickly? Was there another Floor involved? Were you looking to move to a specific table or just change anywhere? Did you pull your chips from the table you were at when you went to the podium? Why did you need to even go up to the podium? As an assumed reg, why didn't you question the move from a 6-handed table ... or is that why you went to the podium?

While I'm not trying to make excuses for the Floor(s) or the room procedures I think you've been around enough to know this stuff happens, even in well run rooms, and you just caught the down side of this spot. But I've also never asked anyone for an apology since it's probably pretty insincere anyway.

I think you were actually trying to help educate the Floor here, but it may have come off in a fashion that the Floor put up his force field too quickly. GL

I find the Socratic method doesn't work too well in these sorts of circumstances. You're too hot to put off the right vibe, and the floor picks up on that and "puts up his force field", as a20 said.

You usually have to be a bit more calm but direct. "I was first to move but the seat you sent me to disappeared. Can you insert me before the rest of the table takes all the remaining seats, please."

Still, even in the best run rooms, some days the bear gets you. Don't get tilted, they'll be playing poker tomorrow too.

This imo. No floor person is gonna apologize to you after you demand an apology. That would make them look weak not just to you but anyone else watching this go down which would be horrible for their reputation.

I apologize all the time.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

I don't care if they demand an apology. Its when they demand I do something that I can't or won't do that I'll get defensive.

In my experience players complaining to floors often leave out important details .... Sometimes because they are upset and talk faster than they think, sometimes because they assume the floor already knows the details.

The result is that sometimes what the floor person is hearing is very different from what the player thinks the floor person is hearing.

So for example a player starts complaining to me that another player got a table transfer from the game. I see that the circumstances fit our rooms rules for when a player is allowed to have a table transfer. So what I see as a floor is a player who feels his game was left short ... He's huffing and puffing and upset and it's not until later that I find out his complaint isn't that the other player was allowed a table transfer ... It's that he believed he was the next up for a table transfer and was skipped. But he left that part out so I had no way to know that was his complaint.

When he tells the story later it was us unreasonably skipping him and doing nothing about it. When I tell the story it's the crazy player who was upset that we allowed a player to move off of a full table.

It didn't.

This is great advice for people who play every day but a lot of people play infrequently, and it hurts a lot more when you've got the night off from your family for the first time in three months and you end up sitting on the rail for an hour.

People who run cardrooms should understand that stuff like this isn't shrugged off by everyone.

???? You were present? I'm legit curious to get third party input. What did you see happen?

FWIW yesterday I talked with the room manager who also talked with the staff. I invited him to talk to another up-dealer who was present to ask if I was shouting or somehow being obnoxious. I'm really big on self-improvement and open to feedback.

Basically after investigating it sounds like he agreed it went down as I said and that I hadn't been treated professionally.


This is all good advice. Thanks to you and to all for the constructive input.

How did all this happen so quickly? -- I'll be damned if I know. I just got called from the game (after taking my button) and somehow btw table and podium they decided to break, then managed to card and send people on their way before I could figure what happened and get back. It was surprising to me they got that taken care of so fast given that drawing for seats is usually non trivial.

Was there another Floor involved? -- Roles in smallish Seattle-area poker rooms are notoriously hard to deduce. For example, it's very common to have one floor working a shift who steps out for a smoke, leaving an experienced up-dealer as acting floor. Someone acting in capacity as floor (or technically as brush) must have gone over to do the carding for seats.


Were you looking to move to a specific table or just change anywhere? -- Any of the three tables. But you sign up individually.

you pull your chips from the table you were at when you went to the podium? -- Yes. I had been called 2 hands ago in my SB and played through my button.

Why did you need to even go up to the podium? -- To confirm the table number (which was in an auxiliary area upstairs) and as a courtesy to let them know since I had asked for more time to play the button, i.e. didn't want them thinking I was stalling or had changed my mind, esp since the upstairs was out of view.

As an assumed reg, why didn't you question the move from a 6-handed table ... or is that why you went to the podium? -- I find that this kind of question produces a "Why are you telling me how to do my job?" reaction. Plus it's plausible the upstairs game had gone down to 5, although if it were me I wouldn't destablize a 6-h game anyway.

Agreed

Maybe. In the end I got an apology (from the acting floor) yesterday; body language seemed sincere but not worth worrying about. Point is the room realizes they shouldn't do this again.

I do see these as training issues--for example, I never wanted the guy to get fired, just for him to get some desperately needed customer service training. But I agree, suggesting process improvements no matter how sincere or constructively intended is often -EV.

Here though I think it was fine to stand my ground, maybe slightly more diplomatically?, rather than meekly accepting it: "OK, you're running the room, so if you already carded for the seats I guess I'm out of luck and will go on the list." That doesn't help the room improve.

This is true. But a good floor knows how to ask good questions.

In this case I don't think there was much explanation I could add--they should know they called me and know they drew for seats!--but I think I was pretty clear. However musing about how I should go to the top of the list apparently elicited a negative reaction.


Yeah, this is common and must be pretty frustrating. I try to include details, maybe too many, to help avoid this.

The point is I can use that apology which doesn't really mean much other than I'm sorry your upset. It can let the other person feel they are getting something from me even though it isn't really anything. Even if they are completely in the wrong I can say this without feeling I'm saying anybody else was wrong.

Oh, sorry, I misunderstood "It didn't." I inferred psandman's comment of being sorry it happened was directed to me and LRR was disputing that it happened.

IMO this is a misunderstanding of where authority comes from, but one that probably leads to a lot of power trips by inexperienced staff in customer-facing roles.

I have an IMMENSE amount of respect for those who own their mistakes and correct them. It gives me confidence they're always trying to improve, a value I hold dearly. I will stick up for staff like this (including the manager of this room) until my dying day. If someone like that later tells me, "C'mon, man, pipe down. You're wrong here," I'm much more likely to take it well because I respect them.

Someone who feels they need to present a facade as though they never do anything wrong starts to act like they never do anything wrong, then they start to believe it. They're deluded, but why would they ever improve? They're already perfect.

We laugh at Canadians or Brits for this and maybe they go overboard but I think aversion to admitting fault isn't a +EV feature of American culture.

As noted above, everyones situation is different, but if something like that happens to me, Ill check my anger/upset/WTF level and if its not going to get better, I rack up and leave(not just for this situation, dealing with dealers, players, floorpeople, etc with bad decisions and bad attitudes to match often). No need to tilt off $ because Im mad at a decision. Im in LA, poker is there tomorrow, next week and even next month. And if I feel I need to play today, the nearest casino is most likely 10-20 minutes away by car. Vote with your feet and make sure if you know someone there, let them know what happened when you speak to them next.

Yeah, that's what I did (the nearest game was literally 10 minutes away), and it all got resolved by the following Monday when the room manager was available. Good life advice.

Let's suppose the game is Omaha (could be any Omaha but especially high-only), on the river. Bettor bets, Caller calls, Bettor shows two cards, Caller mucks. Obviously the bettor has the last live hand and wins the pot, but is there any incentive/inducement for him to show a complete hand?

Similar situation: Bettor bets, Caller calls, Bettor shows two cards, Caller shows two that make a better hand, Bettor mucks. Any reason for Caller to show her hand?

I would say "you're good" and wait for all four cards to hit the felt before mucking, and I show all four pretty quickly when I'm the bettor, but a lot of people don't. It seems off-kilter for many showdowns to not involve even one full tabled hand but I don't see any incentive not to do this.

I personally will make an issue of incomplete tabling both politely and in a matter of fact way, e.g., "The dealer isn't allowed to give you the pot until you show all your cards." Usually it's newer players who do this so I make sure to be very nice about it.

Occasionally an angleshooter or ******* regular will do it; in those instances, I just sit there until they show or muck.

The dealer should make sure all 4 cards of the winning hand are shown before pushing the pot.

Once I called the floor, who said basically, "What do you expect us to do? The other hand is in the muck."

Good call/bad call? I take it you're saying bad call, but how should it play out? "I'm sorry sir. If you don't table a four card hand, we'll have to annul the hand and refund all monies"?

What about this sequence?: Bettor bets, Caller calls, Bettor mucks her bluff.

Answer: "I expect you to turn over all four of those cards and then push him the pot."
That's if the other player mucked because 2 cards were tabled.

If it's really that the bettor mucked his own cards as soon as his bet was called, that's not really an Omaha issue, it's the same procedure as in holdem. In most rooms the caller is not required to show in order to win the pot. However, I played lots of hours in Atlantic City, particularly at the Borgata, where you always had to show your hand to get the pot, and it never once caused any problems. People got used to that rule and didn't mind it. If a tourist didn't know the rules and started pushing his hand in face down, the dealer would just turn it face up and then push the pot before mucking his hand. He would then maybe explain that it has to be tabled if the winner questioned the procedure, but it certainly never caused any arguments.

I have no idea why you think the dealer should turn over cards. The player has the last live hand push the pot.

The incentive to turn over all 4 cards would be that if he doesn't turn them over his opponents might start I on seeing all before they show.