On the basis that you might be at the table to maximize $-EV rather maximize being-right-EV. Which do you prefer?

You remind me of myself back in 2004 when I started playing poker.

My peeve was people flashing cards to their neighbor after the neighbor had folded. I'd read some Bob Ciaffone article in Card Player about show one show all, and it was pissing me off that I had to make a scene at the table to get information that I was entitled to. Fortunately someone on here, I think it may have been bav, mentioned that of the hundreds of winning players he knew, he'd never seen anyone ask to see cards flashed to an out-of-the-hand neighbor.

The implication: I could make a point of asking to see, and I could mark myself as someone who's taking poker very seriously so that recreational opponents play better or just leave and good games turn bad. I still need to apply that lesson to 10000000 other ways but at least I learned not to invoke SOSA there. There will be many times that you can win the battle if you want, but you'll cost yourself the war.

It could have been 1-3 PLO.

I guess bav never played with me then.

I don't see what is bad about invoking SOSA.

By the way it's hard to fault the floorperson but CO is really being obtuse here. If you're going to rant against someone, that should be your target.

It implies you're paying a lot of attention to something that casual players aren't paying a lot of attention to. That may not matter if you're a winning reg and everyone knows it, but it's still not great for the sort of freewheeling environment that makes the most money.

But think about what all has to be true for that info to have much value:

• Has to be an edge case. I don't really care that my opponent sighs and folds a 6-high flush draw on the river. If he folds an ace-high draw instead of calling or bluff-raising maybe that's more interesting.
• Your opponent has to play somewhat consistently. If he just decided to get frisky that hand, you'll overreact to the small sample.
• It has to be someone you'll play with again long enough to assemble a reasonable sample of observations..

It's not that it's a horrible faux pas, it's just that it's not great to be "that guy" at the table. (And I do way too many other things to be "that guy.")

IMO, the guy who deliberately shows his cards to his neighbor is "that guy". And it's almost always going to be a regular - a tourist isn't likely to show his cards to someone he just met. In many cases people showing hands to each other are very close buddies who come exhibit other collusive behavior as well.

The mucking player has a right to conceal the information. The dealer error\accident possibly revealed the information incorrectly. Why should the dealer be required to further, inappropriately disadvantage the mucking player.

You are so very concerned about yourself that you aren't looking at it from the perspective of the player who was actually disadvantaged here. This isn't a SOSA situation, since the player didn't show anyone.

Well, that is true, but if the accidental exposure occurred during the hand we would almost definitely have to SOSA to ensure that none of the players still in the hand had an advantage, even though it was not intentional.

In this case, though, I mostly agree with the ruling. It was an accidental exposure, the hand was over, you won. Move on. If you don't like it, tough. But I wouldn't complain if things went the other way and it was ruled they had to be shown, too.

This is all you need to know. I agree with the floor. If anyone wanted to tell you what they saw then so be it, but lets move on. It was preflop ffs.

If the hand was not mucked butbthe dealer had flipped it back over and the player stopped him from mucking ..... Would you say the cards should be exposed?

Even if you're 100% right on principle, it's like being the guy who walks in front of a truck going 55 mph because in this state you have to stop for pedestrians in a crosswalk. Nobody is going to think more highly of you for being technically right or think less of the guy for doing what players do all the time. Better to pick one's battles.

(To which I say, "Hi, Kettle, my name is Pot," since I should heed my own advice.)

Not "nobody". Other a-holes may think less of me. Anyone whose opinions I care about wouldn't think less of me, because they would think and act roughly the same way that I do. I'm not at the table to make friends with players who disrespect the game / act in a collusive manner. Anyone who flashes his cards like that is almost by definition not the kind of person I would want to be friendly with. Honestly, 99% of the time it's a regular who is a slight losing player and is the type to get grumpy about bad beats, act rudely to other players and dealers, storm off and walk for 45 minutes, etc. If anything, I'd prefer to anger that type of player, to put him on tilt so he'll play worse (although I don't deliberately aim for that).

Maybe in your games, different types of people are showing, but this is what it is like at mid-level Omaha and Holdem games in Vegas. I also don't think regs showing their cards to other regs makes a good impression on the tourists.

Ha no worries, I chuckled reading it. I deserved some good ribbing. I know I came across very poorly, but I really have almost no experience playing with an IRL friend at non-cheeseburger stakes.

Depends if it's a reg who knows better or not. I'm never calling SOSA against a recreational player for fairly obvious reasons. It's not that hard to figure out what type of hands a fish is folding without seeing them anyway. fwiw in the games I play it's mostly the fish doing this kinda stuff and not regs, so we're on different pages I think.

And the thought of calling the floor to invoke SOSA on a hand that was accidentally possibly exposed to some other players while being mucked is just mind blowing to me.

IKR! How much EV do you even gain from that info vs the EV you lose by making the entire table not like you?

I invoke SOSA on arrogant regs because it irks me when people turn up the table, throw around a lot of poker jargon and generally reek of entitlement. Otherwise I just let it go.

EDIT

Basically I agree with chillrob on this one, it's normally regs/douchebags doing this anyway, not the people we actually want at the table.

I did it to someone recently who was being a douche generally, playing slowly/getting distracted easily, and yapping nonstop while playing ultra-tight. He was talking **** to other players, playing it off as just joking around, being disruptive, etc., and folding anything that wasn't the nuts. Just an awful person to have at the table all around.

The second or third time he showed a hand to one of his neighbors to--I guess--show how tight he was playing, I said to the dealer, "What did he show?" The dealer turned them up immediately to show the table. The guy went nuts for about three to five seconds. I replied, "I'm fine with you showing your hand. I just couldn't see it." That was the last time he did it.

I know it's lame to have double standards, but I wouldn't have done what I did if the guy were a loose fish and/or someone who was contributing positively to the ambiance of the table.

It’s not double standards to treat obnoxious douchebags less favourably than normal people IMO.

It is if he's one of the obnoxious douchebags =P jk Rapini, I couldn't help make the joke of proper use of 'double standard'. Plz no banerino

I notice when playing cash games and a tourney is going on, that the TD asks that all players leave the tournament area during the breaks. Why is that?

Players milling about tables can result in chip theft. Also getting the players away from the tables gives an opportunity to straighten up. In my room we only require players leave for the ling dinner breaks.

Posting a missed SB, is this posted live or dead?

In my room, missed is posted dead, but if you seat change out of SB and do it immediately you post it live in your new seat.

Yeah, I think it's the seat change SB that can vary by room.

Missed SB has to be dead. Otherwise it's a pretty easy angle--always post your BB then get up one hand. When you come back, play your live SB from the CO. You lost something by not getting a button but made up for it by posting some of your required dead money in position.

In a few game situations (say PLO with a very good aggressive player on your left) the angle of a live SB might not be worth it.

IMO the "something" you lose by missing your button, and just generally missing a hand per orbit of blinds, far outweighs whatever benefit you might get from posting your SB live IP. So I'm not sure that would be such a good "angle" anyway.

Having said that, some rooms will allow you to post the missed SB OTB anyway (usually dead, but if it were allowed live, then I assume they would allow it live OTB as well), so then it would just be missing one hand an orbit which you would lose, making it a much closer call IMO. It would also cause some procedural problems with chops and having three blinds out, but those same issues exist in a moving button room so they've basically mostly been solved already.

Most of our charity rooms/home games will let you post a missed SB OTB. I got a call one time and the Dealer didn't deal me into the SB. I was barely 10 feet from the table. I sat right back down and posted OTB (dead) ... and straddled ... and one lady at the table went into a queen-sized rant about the angle I just pulled. Yes, sure, it was a fake phone call so I could post 'more' dead money on my straddle!! GL

Can anyone think of a worse response on 2+2 than the following?

Bout tree fiddy is bad, but I think "LOL no" is worse.