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Old 07-01-2018, 11:22 AM   #1
sam drucker
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Interesting ruling at Turningstone

9-handed 2/5 NLHE. Preflop the 2,6,7,8,9 seats call. The 2seat is a chatty cathy involved in conversation with 3seat. Flop and turn are checked by 6,7,8, and 9. The 2seat doesn't act or say anything. The dealer apparently doesn't
realize the 2 has cards.

The river is turned, the 5h. The 6seat checks, the 7 bets $20, the 8 folds, the 9 folds. At this point the 2seat complains that she hasn't had a chance to act on the flop. The floor is called.

I know in poker rooms some floors can be lazy, not too bright, biased (i.e. tips from players), but most are good decent folks who try to do the right thing. At Turningstone I have never seen any of the former. There is a no-tipping staff rule that is strictly enforced. The only variable is the depth of their poker background.

Here the floor rules that the river (5h) will come back. The 2seat will get an opportunity to act, along with the rest of the table, on the turn. Then a new river will be dealt with the 2seat included in the action. The 7seat shows pocket fives for trips on the river. He complains that the natural flow of the cards gives him the winning hand, and that he is being punished when he did nothing wrong.

Simply put, this just can't be the correct ruling. The responsible parties are the dealer, and the 2seat. The 7seat did nothing wrong, only acting after the 6seat did. An argument ensued. Interestingly, the loudest complaint was from the 2seat who felt her rights had been infringed upon by not being able to act on the flop, turn, and river.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-01-2018, 11:24 AM   #2
Motierre
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

Substantial action has occurred, hand is dead. Player had ample time to alert dealer.

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Old 07-01-2018, 11:34 AM   #3
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by Motierre View Post
Substantial action has occurred, hand is dead. Player had ample time to alert dealer.

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I would not kill the hand .... I would treat her as though she had checked. Action back to her ... She can call raise or fold .... No new turn or river.
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Old 07-01-2018, 11:59 AM   #4
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

Killing the hand is lol as is bringing the river or the turn back.

Seat 2 gets a lecture about paying attention and has the opportunity to act in turn.

Away from the table, dealer gets a lecture about knowing who has live cards. If Seat 2 doesn't have his or her cards visible, the dealer is being paid to remember they have cards.
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Old 07-01-2018, 12:39 PM   #5
Aurora Tom
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

I'm assuming the button was somewhere between 2 and 6? So 2 was never the 1st to act? Assuming this, or maybe even regardless, I would say significant action has happened as to the flop and river. Action should be $20 to Seat 2. Seat 6 is still to act after Seat 2.
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Old 07-01-2018, 02:47 PM   #6
browni3141
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

The hand should be dead if there was action on previous streets, but there's no reason not to treat seat 2 as though she checked if she didn't face action on an earlier street.

Lol at complaining about missing her chance to act on the flop after the river card came out. It's good that it sounds like she's contributing to a friendly atmosphere, but she still has to pay attention while she's talking.
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Old 07-01-2018, 03:36 PM   #7
Snipers35
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam drucker View Post
9-handed 2/5 NLHE. Preflop the 2,6,7,8,9 seats call. The 2seat is a chatty cathy involved in conversation with 3seat. Flop and turn are checked by 6,7,8, and 9. The 2seat doesn't act or say anything. The dealer apparently doesn't
realize the 2 has cards.

The river is turned, the 5h. The 6seat checks, the 7 bets $20, the 8 folds, the 9 folds. At this point the 2seat complains that she hasn't had a chance to act on the flop. The floor is called.

I know in poker rooms some floors can be lazy, not too bright, biased (i.e. tips from players), but most are good decent folks who try to do the right thing. At Turningstone I have never seen any of the former. There is a no-tipping staff rule that is strictly enforced. The only variable is the depth of their poker background.

Here the floor rules that the river (5h) will come back. The 2seat will get an opportunity to act, along with the rest of the table, on the turn. Then a new river will be dealt with the 2seat included in the action. The 7seat shows pocket fives for trips on the river. He complains that the natural flow of the cards gives him the winning hand, and that he is being punished when he did nothing wrong.

Simply put, this just can't be the correct ruling. The responsible parties are the dealer, and the 2seat. The 7seat did nothing wrong, only acting after the 6seat did. An argument ensued. Interestingly, the loudest complaint was from the 2seat who felt her rights had been infringed upon by not being able to act on the flop, turn, and river.

Thoughts?
I would send a PM to Frankie518 on this to get any clarity. He should be able to tell you if his floor was right/wrong and be able to train if there is an issue.
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Old 07-01-2018, 03:57 PM   #8
albedoa
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

We don't need Frankie518 to tell us it was wrong.
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Old 07-01-2018, 06:01 PM   #9
DCJ001
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by sam drucker View Post
Interestingly, the loudest complaint was from the 2seat who felt her rights had been infringed upon by not being able to act on the flop, turn, and river.

Thoughts?
She should have been paying attention.

There was too much action to go back at all.
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Old 07-01-2018, 08:50 PM   #10
Jkpoker10
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

What the hell is the dealer doing here? Sounds like a big mistake
By dealer
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:21 PM   #11
AKQJ10
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
Killing the hand is lol as is bringing the river or the turn back.
Exactly, that. If there were a bet that Seat 2 had failed to call, and then on the river she shows up with cards after significant action, then killing her hand would be appropriate.

Quote:
Away from the table, dealer gets a lecture about knowing who has live cards. If Seat 2 doesn't have his or her cards visible, the dealer is being paid to remember they have cards.
I suppose, but players hiding cards (which I do by accident too since my hands are big) are being inconsiderate. The dealer should track this, yes, because they should announce the number of players in a flop game and be able to cache that number in memory long enough for everyone to act in the next round. But in practice dealers seem to miss this all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
We don't need Frankie518 to tell us it was wrong.

Apparently we need this person to tell us if it's considered wrong at this room. I get as much value from this forum learning how the rules are applied different places as learning how they should be applied. At least, I get better at protecting myself from weird floor rulings.

At the table hopefully someone else or I would notice and speak up, but often that doesn't happen. I need to work on my observation skills.
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Old 07-01-2018, 09:47 PM   #12
psandman
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by Jkpoker10 View Post
What the hell is the dealer doing here? Sounds like a big mistake
By dealer
Five players in the hand. 4 players plus the dealer dont realize seat 2 is still in the hand. Seat two completely missed 4 players acting and the dealer burning and turning (TWICE)..... And you think the only one who has made a mistake is the dealer?
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:35 AM   #13
socentralrain
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
Five players in the hand. 4 players plus the dealer dont realize seat 2 is still in the hand. Seat two completely missed 4 players acting and the dealer burning and turning (TWICE)..... And you think the only one who has made a mistake is the dealer?
It's not the ONLY mistake, absolutely, but it's the dealer's job to know what's going on, who's turn it is, and how the action progresses. The last line of defense as it were.

Obv seat 2 needs to pay attention when she's in a hand, and if she was concealing her cards or otherwise making it less evident that she was in the hand, that's also a problem. However, it's the dealer's job to ensure this doesn't happen.

If I'm seat 2's friend, I tell her that it's the dealer's error, but you need to do a better job of protecting your own interests.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:22 AM   #14
BigBlue56
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

As played, $20 to seat 2. Fold, Call, or Raise.

No bets were missed, no reason to kill the hand.
Too much action to wind anything back.

Unsure if 2 where the button is, but it doesn't matter at this point.

Yes, all involved should have known 2 was in the hand. Yes, 2 should have been following the action. Perhaps some involved noticed, but for some reason didn't speak up or stop the action.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:56 AM   #15
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by socentralrain View Post
It's not the ONLY mistake, absolutely, but it's the dealer's job to know what's going on, who's turn it is, and how the action progresses. The last line of defense as it were.

Obv seat 2 needs to pay attention when she's in a hand, and if she was concealing her cards or otherwise making it less evident that she was in the hand, that's also a problem. However, it's the dealer's job to ensure this doesn't happen.

If I'm seat 2's friend, I tell her that it's the dealer's error, but you need to do a better job of protecting your own interests.
If you want to assign blame, put it at 20% dealer, 80% player 2. Had player 2 missed one round of action, i can see putting it on the dealer. But the player was so oblivious that she missed 2 rounds of action. How do you do this at a poker table?

Plus you can infer from the fact that no one saw her cards that she probably had disengaged body language and was covering her cards. Yes, dealer should pay attention, but I am not going to ding them too hard for missing this one.
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Old 07-02-2018, 12:54 PM   #16
socentralrain
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
If you want to assign blame, put it at 20% dealer, 80% player 2. Had player 2 missed one round of action, i can see putting it on the dealer. But the player was so oblivious that she missed 2 rounds of action. How do you do this at a poker table?
Of course, but sometimes **** happens at/around the table. Waitress came, food came, friend dropped by to say hi, someone screaming behind you, any myriad of other random occurrences at the cardroom.
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Old 07-02-2018, 01:19 PM   #17
SpewingIsMyMove
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by socentralrain View Post
Of course, but sometimes **** happens at/around the table. Waitress came, food came, friend dropped by to say hi, someone screaming behind you, any myriad of other random occurrences at the cardroom.
I cannot imagine something happening that would distract me for two rounds of action.
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Old 07-03-2018, 08:11 AM   #18
MJ88
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by socentralrain View Post
Of course, but sometimes **** happens at/around the table. Waitress came, food came, friend dropped by to say hi, someone screaming behind you, any myriad of other random occurrences at the cardroom.
You still need to protect your own hand and action. The dealer isn't your babysitter. Tell the waitress or your friend to wait, you're in a hand.
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:39 PM   #19
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

To much action ... Welcome back ... Action is on you ... Play on. GL
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:00 PM   #20
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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I would not kill the hand .... I would treat her as though she had checked. Action back to her ... She can call raise or fold .... No new turn or river.
This.
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:24 PM   #21
youtalkfunny
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

Oh, you guys did it this time.

I just found this thread, and it sent me right through the roof. There's gonna be a lot of ALL CAPS in this post:

The biggest problem facing poker today is that it has become acceptable to hide your cards from the view of the dealer and the other players. This notion that the dealer "is being paid to remember they have cards" is a recipe for disaster. Please allow me to explain why.

You know what else the dealer is paid to remember? Which player is supposed to act first this hand. Do you know how he keeps track of this? He places a white disc on the felt, called "the button".

Now, please indulge me in a little intellectual exercise. Imagine a world where the players are CONSTANTLY, almost every hand, hiding this disc from the dealer's view. They cover it with their hands, or put it behind their chips....and every round of every hand, we need to stop and look for it so that we may proceed.

How would you react to this, if it happened at your table?

A: You would ask the button hider to stop doing that; there is no need to do that; leaving it in sight is no harder than hiding it.

or

B: You'd ask, "What is wrong with this dealer???" You'd tell the offending player, "It was the dealer's fault."

Your hole cards are no different than the button. You need to fly them like a flag, that marks you AT A GLANCE as an active participant in this hand!

I'll never understand why the game has been allowed to devolve to this. This was not an issue 20 years ago, you might see this come up once a year. Now I see it every hand! I've stopped fussing about it--it is simply the way the game is played now, and I can't change the world.

But this is 2+2. I expect better from you guys.

Go ahead, tell me how hiding your cards is different from hiding the button. You can't.

(I love you, AKQJT, but "I have big hands" is the worst excuse I've ever heard.)
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Old 07-03-2018, 06:49 PM   #22
AKQJ10
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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Originally Posted by youtalkfunny View Post
(I love you, AKQJT, but "I have big hands" is the worst excuse I've ever heard.)
Good post and I agree with you that it's not really an excuse. I accept the obligation to keep the cards in view. All I said was that I often hide my cards by accident, which is descriptive and true. But having big hands means I need to be more aware than someone with small hands.

(There, I resisted making a joke about a public figure with small hands....)
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Old 07-03-2018, 07:36 PM   #23
youtalkfunny
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

Just as I resisted starting my post with a .gif of him blasting "WRONG!" into a microphone, on an endless loop.
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:23 PM   #24
FearfulFerret
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

Players have an obligation to protect their cards, not to protect the button. Additionally, there is at least an argument that obscuring the back of your cards helps protect from other players identifying marked cards in your hand. That said, players should certainly make it clear when they do and do not have a live hand, and placing their cards in a visible location is the simplest and most effective method.
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Old 07-03-2018, 11:18 PM   #25
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Re: Interesting ruling at Turningstone

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I'll never understand why the game has been allowed to devolve to this. This was not an issue 20 years ago, you might see this come up once a year. Now I see it every hand! I've stopped fussing about it--it is simply the way the game is played now, and I can't change the world.
Preach.

It's ridiculous how the game is played now, with half the table staring at their phone, 3 others watching TV, and the guy who is trying to play poker is looked at as a "problem" by the others for trying to speed up the action.

I've also given up.
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