Interesting ruling at Turningstone - Page 2 - Poker Card Room

I would send a PM to Frankie518 on this to get any clarity. He should be able to tell you if his floor was right/wrong and be able to train if there is an issue.

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Originally Posted by albedoa

We don't need Frankie518 to tell us it was wrong.

LOL agreed,

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07-04-2018 , 02:02 AM

#27

the pleasure

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 6,093

also i only played at turning stone once, was like a 10 hr session.

dealers were either really good or meh. the players that play there tho. are either super chill and friendly or just the nut ****ing low. i remember getting **** becuase I looked like I was 15 there when I was 18, which I don tmind but I remember a dealer telling me "I couldn't leave the table" because then it would "break the table" ( i was only up 12$)

what the ****?????

anyways thats my vent

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07-04-2018 , 04:14 AM

#28

chillrob

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Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 20,868

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

Killing the hand is lol as is bringing the river or the turn back.

Don't know why you think this; standard rule is to kill a hand if a player doesn't protect his action and two or three players have acted after him.

I don't hate treating it as though he checked each time though. Actual ruling is, of course, lol.

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07-04-2018 , 05:35 AM

#29

psandman

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Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 15,829

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

There is no reason to kill in this situation where the player though they didn't act has called all bets.

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07-04-2018 , 09:28 AM

#30

Jkpoker10

veteran

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 2,978

Quote:

Originally Posted by psandman

Five players in the hand. 4 players plus the dealer dont realize seat 2 is still in the hand. Seat two completely missed 4 players acting and the dealer burning and turning (TWICE)..... And you think the only one who has made a mistake is the dealer?

it goes on the player and the dealer. The dealer is paid to control the game though and make sure players act in turn and follow rules, etc. No way should the river be burned and a new card thrown in.

If i was player that lost, I would probably leave table wasn't insanely juicy and never give that casino business again. A player shouldn't be punished due to a bad dealer in this case. Just my thoughts.

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07-04-2018 , 10:12 AM

#31

Suit

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 4,744

I must have missed the part in the OP that said seat 2 was hiding her cards?? I agree that it is a ridiculous problem with an easy fix if all these people weren't self-centered idiots, but I have no reason to believe this was the case in this particular instance.

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07-04-2018 , 08:46 PM

#32

AKQJ10

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Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

Don't know why you think this; standard rule is to kill a hand if a player doesn't protect his action and two or three players have acted after him.

What's your source? It's certainly not RRoP, which lists 8 circumstances when a hand can be declared dead but not this one. It also discusses how to handle a situation like this, but makes no mention of killing hands:

Quote:

11. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.

(Section 3 under Betting and Raising. Emphasis added. http://www.pokercoach.us/robspkrrules4.htm)

Killing someone's hand for failure to act when there's no bet to them is really really bad. If someone facing a bet managed to zone out for one and a half betting rounds, killing the hand might be reasonable, although everyone should be ashamed for not noticing.

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07-04-2018 , 08:59 PM

#33

chillrob

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That's the rule I was thinking of. My interpretation of "losing the right to act" included calling; that is an action. I wouldn't have killed the hand on the flop or turn, but now on the river there is a bet so I figured the player would not be allowed to act by calling or raising when the action got back around to her.

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07-04-2018 , 09:25 PM

#34

AKQJ10

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Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

It seems the button was somewhere around the 3 seat so the 2 seat hadn't even had her river turn yet. Indeed, nothing irregular happened OTR. But she was upset she didn't get to act on a previous round:

Quote:

Interestingly, the loudest complaint was from the 2seat who felt her rights had been infringed upon by not being able to act on the flop, turn, and river.

which is a preposterous thing for her to complain about, but poker players make preposterous complaints all the time. The floorperson should apologize even now to everyone else involved in the hand for a terrible ruling.

If the flop or turn had been bet and we ended up here OTR, I think you'd have to kill her hand. She had the opportunity to "act," i.e. call the bet, and failed to do so.

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07-05-2018 , 08:55 AM

#35

MJ88

veteran

Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,994

Quote:

Originally Posted by chillrob

I can see how you might interpret it this way, but I'm pretty sure that the intent of the rule was that the offender would "lose the right to act" in her original turn, i.e., by rolling the action back to her.
But generally speaking, if there has been no subsequent betting (only checking), even on multiple rounds as here, there is no need to kill her hand.

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07-09-2018 , 03:52 PM

#36

wrapdraw

journeyman

Join Date: May 2012 Posts: 223

Dealers sometimes make mistakes. They are not robots and this seemed to me like it was more on the player. Player couldn't stop talking for a couple minutes to play the hand? Not to mention miss two streets of action. I personally think the river should stay, player learns a lesson to pay attention. Dealer get a reminder away from the table to try and remember who has cards. things happen, not like this was a $500 pot on the river.

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07-09-2018 , 06:20 PM

#37

AKQJ10

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Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 13,299

"player learns a lesson" is always the wrong motivation for a floor ruling. In this case the river card should not change but it has nothing to do with teaching lessons.

If you make a ruling to "teach 'em a lesson" but they prove to be dense/stubborn/incapable of learning a lesson then does that make it a bad ruling?

Last edited by AKQJ10; 07-09-2018 at 06:26 PM.

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07-10-2018 , 02:01 AM

#38

deuce24off

newbie

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 37

Substantial action has occurred. The river should stay, and action will follow as need be. When substantial action has occurred, things like premature cards cannot be reversed. This is completely the incorrect ruling. It is seat 2's responsibility to speak up and say something if the dealer is bypassing their action.

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