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Old 07-04-2018, 04:50 PM   #51
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
The Horseshoe in Hammond, Indiana is one of the rooms, and it's one of the best rooms in America. This is the general rule across the country as far as I know. If the cards have not touched the muck, they are considered live and can be retrieved.
1. Simply touching the muck should have nothing to do with it and in good rooms it doesn't. At showdown such hands are alive, but...

2. You are confusion a hand released forward at showdown vs one released forward facing a bet or raise. Different rules apply for mucking in the former case vs folding in the latter. The general rule across the country is the hand is folded. Some rooms may return it live but that is not the floors only option.
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Old 07-04-2018, 09:58 PM   #52
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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So where you work, a player can fold (toss his hand forward when facing a bet) and then after seeing the rest of the table also fold, he can retrieve his hand and decide to call so long as the dealer hasn't mucked it yet? C'mon man, you are making zero sense here.
Of course they can't do that...Are you serious right now? There is this thing called "substantial action." If there has been substantial action, which would be your example, no he can't get his cards back. In what world would any poker room allow what you just suggested?
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:58 AM   #53
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
In what world would any poker room allow what you just suggested?
Your own world, according to you:

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
You are saying that the player has made no binding indication of action, and it is only the dealers initiative that kills the hand.
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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
This is the general rule across the country as far as I know. If the cards have not touched the muck, they are considered live and can be retrieved.
Not a single reference to or exception for "substantial action", but even so, nobody should be expected to consider that the concept of "substantial action" exists in your world or expected to know what it means there. In your world, a fold is not a fold. We are limited only by our imaginations.
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Old 07-05-2018, 01:04 PM   #54
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
Of course they can't do that...Are you serious right now? There is this thing called "substantial action." If there has been substantial action, which would be your example, no he can't get his cards back. In what world would any poker room allow what you just suggested?
According to you, the place you work allows it...
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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
To all the "know-it-all's" who think just because he threw his hand forward it is a fold, you are wrong. In every single casino I've ever played in, along with the one I work in, a player's card are not dead until they hit the muck. It doesn't matter if the cards are pushed forward. If the player retrieves their cards before they hit the muck, everywhere I've ever played the hand is still live.

If they verbally say fold, then yes it's a fold. Unless they verbally say fold, or the cards hit the muck, they are still live and can be played.
You say here that it was not a dead hand. Did you not read the OP? In case you didn't, it said he threw his hand in which caused the next player to also fold AND THEN he grabbed his cards back and decided to call. So which is it? You said his hand isn't dead and then I asked if your room allowed that and you said no room would ever allow it. I am so confused RN.
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Old 07-05-2018, 04:48 PM   #55
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Most likely d24o was unaware of the context of this thread and meant not inducing action behind but didn't state that qualification. We seem to all agree that any interpretation allowing a simulated fold followed by induced action followed by taking the cards back is just bizarre.
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:42 PM   #56
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
Most likely d24o was unaware of the context of this thread and meant not inducing action behind but didn't state that qualification. We seem to all agree that any interpretation allowing a simulated fold followed by induced action followed by taking the cards back is just bizarre.
Why does it matter if action was induced. If someone gave an unequivocal indication of a fold, it is a fold. Action is binding, regardless of what the other players do.

Like I mentioned above, if the room treats face down, forward discarded cards as a fold(i.e. dealer mucks them), then it should be treated as a fold
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Old 07-05-2018, 09:49 PM   #57
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

I'm just trying to sort out the confusion above in the thread.
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Old 07-06-2018, 01:39 AM   #58
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

^^^^ I'm not going to explain the entirety of our rules. It's not worth my time. In short, in the original scenario of this thread, the player would be able to retrieve his cards and play them. In the final scenario that I responded to, where the "entire table folds" which I'm assuming is like 6-8 players, then no that player can't retrieve his cards.

I'm retiring from this thread b/c this is obviously going nowhere.
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:21 AM   #59
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

It's not clear you're responding to "This makes the other player in hand fold," and it's not clear why you'd draw a line somewhere between inducing one fold and inducing six. (Three? Four?)

Regardless this is clearly making you more upset than it would make most people so it's a solid decision not to hang around.
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Old 07-06-2018, 02:23 AM   #60
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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I'm retiring from this thread b/c this is obviously not going my way.
.
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:28 AM   #61
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

It’s hilarious he’s so shocked that we didn’t assume “a fold is not a fold until the dealer mucks it” to mean “or until literally any other poker action is made”. Like we’re supposed to just know that everything else in this room with an ass-backwards rule operates as you would expect
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Old 07-06-2018, 10:47 AM   #62
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

If only I could've retired after my 15th post ... back to the grind stone. GL
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Old 07-08-2018, 05:05 PM   #63
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by albedoa View Post
It’s hilarious he’s so shocked that we didn’t assume “a fold is not a fold until the dealer mucks it” to mean “or until literally any other poker action is made”. Like we’re supposed to just know that everything else in this room with an ass-backwards rule operates as you would expect
I still don't believe his room has a 'fold is not a fold until the dealer mucks' rule. That would be different than any room I have ever played in.

I think this was a classic case of a guy getting confused in his first post (probably thinking the an identifiable, unmucked hand is not dead at showdown situation), but then couldn't back down after coming out firing. D24O is probably retiring that account and will come back as someone new.

I would never play in a room that let me discard my cards forward, wait to see if anyone reacts, then take my cards back if I can do it before the dealer grabs them or the next guy reacts.
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:13 PM   #64
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

I think that just because d24o has said he is going to retire from this thread does not necessarily mean that he is going to retire from this thread...

I am adding the Horeshoe in Indiana to the list of casinos to avoid playing poker in. At the very least I don't think they are doing a very good job of educating their poker employees.

Awesome thread by the way. I am glad so many of us know-it-alls understand the difference between showdown and facing a bet.

For me it should be a fold unless there are extreme extenuating circumstances (like the player did not intend to throw the cards forward, or the player was always keeping his cards forward, etc.). The problem with letting substantial action into the conversation is that there may have been a reaction from the player betting that the player folding now reads. Or the player may just have turned his hand over to show a bluff. In any case throwing your cards forward when facing a bet should be considered the same as saying "fold".
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Old 07-10-2018, 07:29 PM   #65
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

From what I can see is this always ruled as a fold?
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