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Old 06-29-2018, 10:18 AM   #26
Playbig2000
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
To all the "know-it-all's" who think just because he threw his hand forward it is a fold, you are wrong. In every single casino I've ever played in, along with the one I work in, a player's card are not dead until they hit the muck. It doesn't matter if the cards are pushed forward. If the player retrieves their cards before they hit the muck, everywhere I've ever played the hand is still live.

If they verbally say fold, then yes it's a fold. Unless they verbally say fold, or the cards hit the muck, they are still live and can be played.
It doesn't look like you're one of the "know-it-all's". You should read and study the rules of poker:

DEAD HANDS
1. Your hand is declared dead if:
(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.
(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).


Source: RROP
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:21 AM   #27
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
To all the "know-it-all's" who think just because he threw his hand forward it is a fold, you are wrong. In every single casino I've ever played in, along with the one I work in, a player's card are not dead until they hit the muck. It doesn't matter if the cards are pushed forward. If the player retrieves their cards before they hit the muck, everywhere I've ever played the hand is still live.

If they verbally say fold, then yes it's a fold. Unless they verbally say fold, or the cards hit the muck, they are still live and can be played.
Then you have played and worked in some casinos with some really bad (and recently invented) rules....
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:42 AM   #28
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
To all the "know-it-all's" who think just because he threw his hand forward it is a fold, you are wrong. In every single casino I've ever played in, along with the one I work in, a player's card are not dead until they hit the muck. It doesn't matter if the cards are pushed forward. If the player retrieves their cards before they hit the muck, everywhere I've ever played the hand is still live.

If they verbally say fold, then yes it's a fold. Unless they verbally say fold, or the cards hit the muck, they are still live and can be played.
To pile on, this makes no sense, and either your casino has horrendous rules, or you are confusing showdown with someone throwing their hand forward during the hand.

Lots of times, a player will throw their hand forward preflop, and another player will throw their cards onto those cards to make it easier for the dealer to pull them in. Should that player get a penalty for killing the first player's hand?

When the first player throws their cards forward preflop without announcing fold, when is their hand dead? There isn't a muck yet, so it can't be when their hand touches the muck.

If a player throws their cards forward preflop, and the next player acts before the dealer puts them in the muck, should they be warned for acting out of turn? After all, the previous player hasn't folded yet, according to you.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:43 AM   #29
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by Had2Call View Post
Just because you end up heads up doesn't turn the game into a home game where players can do whatever they want. It especially causes problems when other players see a rule ignored, especially one as clear cut as when is a hand folded, and then demand the same flexibility later. It allows players the opportunity to enforce one set of rules when they are playing against a buddy, and enforce a different set of rules when they end up in a hand with a guy they don't like.
This is a draconian solution to a small to moderate problem. Yes, if people want to blatantly unfold their hands every other hand and people openly collude to break the rules, then you have to sigh and smack people over the head with a rulebook.

But sometimes people occasionally have brain farts (does anyone really believe Villain here meant to fold trips top kicker?) and in these cases where intention is not questioned, the case is borderline to begin with (like if he had caught his hand half a second earlier midair it would have been fine), and the scenario is rare (I would rarely extend the clsame courtesy to a preflop decision), there's space for two consenting adults to make an agreement if they want.
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Old 06-29-2018, 12:40 PM   #30
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
To all the "know-it-all's" who think just because he threw his hand forward it is a fold, you are wrong. In every single casino I've ever played in, along with the one I work in, a player's card are not dead until they hit the muck. It doesn't matter if the cards are pushed forward. If the player retrieves their cards before they hit the muck, everywhere I've ever played the hand is still live.

If they verbally say fold, then yes it's a fold. Unless they verbally say fold, or the cards hit the muck, they are still live and can be played.
We all understand there is going to be a few outlier casinos with weird rules. What we were saying is that in any cardroom with normal and/or reasonable rules the hand was dead when the player intentionally released them in a forward motion indicating a fold.
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Old 06-29-2018, 03:00 PM   #31
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
To all the "know-it-all's" who think just because he threw his hand forward it is a fold, you are wrong. In every single casino I've ever played in, along with the one I work in, a player's card are not dead until they hit the muck. It doesn't matter if the cards are pushed forward. If the player retrieves their cards before they hit the muck, everywhere I've ever played the hand is still live.

If they verbally say fold, then yes it's a fold. Unless they verbally say fold, or the cards hit the muck, they are still live and can be played.
Perhaps this is just a terminology problem, between "folded" and "dead".

Your hand is folded once you throw them forward while facing a bet. But they are not "dead" yet, from a practical perspective. As long as they are identifiable and retrievable, they can be ruled live.

One example of this might be a player in seat 1 who raises, and it folds around to seat 10 who re-raises, but because the dealer is reaching forward collected folded hands at the time, seat 1 doesn't see the re-raise and thinks he has won, and throws his hand forward. Though he has technically folded, a floor may rule that his hand is still live, in the best interest of the game. So his hand is folded, but not yet completely dead.
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Old 06-29-2018, 03:16 PM   #32
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
This is a draconian solution to a small to moderate problem. Yes, if people want to blatantly unfold their hands every other hand and people openly collude to break the rules, then you have to sigh and smack people over the head with a rulebook.

But sometimes people occasionally have brain farts (does anyone really believe Villain here meant to fold trips top kicker?) and in these cases where intention is not questioned, the case is borderline to begin with (like if he had caught his hand half a second earlier midair it would have been fine), and the scenario is rare (I would rarely extend the same courtesy to a preflop decision), there's space for two consenting adults to make an agreement if they want.
I agree with everything here except that the situation in the OP would require unanimity among three consenting adults. The one who acted behind is also a stakeholder in the hand.

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
We all understand there is going to be a few outlier casinos with weird rules. What we were saying is that in any cardroom with normal and/or reasonable rules the hand was dead when the player intentionally released them in a forward motion indicating a fold.
Based on the RRoP excerpt above, I'd infer that a house that lets someone take their cards back if they didn't induce action behind still has normal and/or reasonable rules. Am I misreading the RRoP? Can I assume anything compliant with RRoP in this context is at least reasonable?
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Old 06-29-2018, 03:24 PM   #33
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by AKQJ10 View Post
I agree with everything here except that the situation in the OP would require unanimity among three consenting adults. The one who acted behind is also a stakeholder in the hand.



Based on the RRoP excerpt above, I'd infer that a house that lets someone take their cards back if they didn't induce action behind still has normal and/or reasonable rules. Am I misreading the RRoP? Can I assume anything compliant with RRoP in this context is at least reasonable?
I think section a addresses it. I think section b is just allowing some leeway for ambiguous circumstances... Where the forward motion may not have been intentional.

I have never seen a room allow a player to unfold where his action appears to be an intentional fold.
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Old 06-29-2018, 03:44 PM   #34
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
I have never seen a room allow a player to unfold where his action appears to be an intentional fold.
Do you let the big blind grab his cards back if he throws them forward not realizing that it was either not raised or that he was in fact the big blind and checking was an option?
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:32 PM   #35
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
Do you let the big blind grab his cards back if he throws them forward not realizing that it was either not raised or that he was in fact the big blind and checking was an option?
That's not even a fold. A proper fold can only be made when one is facing action.
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Old 06-29-2018, 04:40 PM   #36
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
Do you let the big blind grab his cards back if he throws them forward not realizing that it was either not raised or that he was in fact the big blind and checking was an option?
He isn't facng a bet .. so yes ... I didn't specify that here because contextually I've already addressed it in the discussion and was just trying to address the current limb.
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Old 06-29-2018, 10:44 PM   #37
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Yeah, I posted that and then realized it wasn't that relevant. Sorry. Wasn't trying to "gotcha", was genuinely curious at the time because I generally respect your thoughts on pretty much everything poker/dealer related.
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Old 06-30-2018, 05:36 PM   #38
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Since it was not at showdown I also think this should have been ruled a fold. But this ruling is just another example of the rules being what the dealer/floor says they are , and once in a while stuff like this happens. Live poker can get annoying.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:39 PM   #39
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by SpewingIsMyMove View Post
So, you are saying that every time a dealer mucks cards that have been discarded forward with no verbal declaration of action, it is the dealer who is folding the hand, not the player? You are saying that the player has made no binding indication of action, and it is only the dealers initiative that kills the hand.

I think I do not want to play in every casino you have played in, including the one you work in, if a dealer routinely acts to fold a hand when the player has not acted. This seems like a really, really badly run room(s)
The Horseshoe in Hammond, Indiana is one of the rooms, and it's one of the best rooms in America. This is the general rule across the country as far as I know. If the cards have not touched the muck, they are considered live and can be retrieved.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:42 PM   #40
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by dinesh View Post
Perhaps this is just a terminology problem, between "folded" and "dead".

Your hand is folded once you throw them forward while facing a bet. But they are not "dead" yet, from a practical perspective. As long as they are identifiable and retrievable, they can be ruled live.

One example of this might be a player in seat 1 who raises, and it folds around to seat 10 who re-raises, but because the dealer is reaching forward collected folded hands at the time, seat 1 doesn't see the re-raise and thinks he has won, and throws his hand forward. Though he has technically folded, a floor may rule that his hand is still live, in the best interest of the game. So his hand is folded, but not yet completely dead.

Correct, folded and dead are two different terminologies. Yes, throwing your hand forward is a "fold", but just because that has happens doesn't imply the hand is dead. The situation you have brought up is a perfect example as to why throwing your cards in doesn't mean that your cards are dead.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:59 PM   #41
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

I think even in the example Dinesh gave that would be a terrible ruling to make a hand live. He didn't notice he had been reraised instead of everyone else folding? Tough luck, pay attention to the game when your money is at risk. You folded, you lose.
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Old 07-03-2018, 02:24 AM   #42
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
Correct, folded and dead are two different terminologies. Yes, throwing your hand forward is a "fold", but just because that has happens doesn't imply the hand is dead. The situation you have brought up is a perfect example as to why throwing your cards in doesn't mean that your cards are dead.
The fact that a floor may use rule 1 to say in a particular situation that a player can have his hand back should not be considered refutation of the general rule.
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:31 AM   #43
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by Dacriz View Post
1/2 local casino.

Pot $35, three players on flop. Flop 5/5/6. Small blind leads $30. Big blind throws his cards forward barely past the betting line, hesitates a beat, then grabs them before dealer can react. This makes the other player in hand fold. Big blind then puts chips in to call.

Small blind wants floor called. Big blind says “it can be a call or fold, your choice”. Small blind still wants floor called. Floor says dealer didnt touch cards and they didnt teach the muck so hand is live even though it influenced action.

So the call stands. Turn is a 7, small blind shoves $250, big blind calls with A5 and scoops. Big blind says he knew he had an ace but as he was folding thought the other card might be a 5 and double checked and it was.

Not sure why small blind didnt take up the offer for a fold but he was upset on ruling. Standard ruling?
I want to side with callipygian on this one when he says, "(does anyone really believe Villain here meant to fold trips top kicker?)."

Combined with deuce24off's comment about the muck.

It's not like the player retrieved the card after the hand was over. He hesitates a beat, then grans them before dealer can react.
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Old 07-03-2018, 05:15 AM   #44
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
The Horseshoe in Hammond, Indiana is one of the rooms, and it's one of the best rooms in America.
This looks like a contradiction, but I've never played there. Maybe there are redeeming factors.

Quote:
This is the general rule across the country as far as I know.
It's not.

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
Yes, throwing your hand forward is a "fold", but just because that has happens doesn't imply the hand is dead.
What does this sentence mean?
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:51 AM   #45
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
The Horseshoe in Hammond, Indiana is one of the rooms, and it's one of the best rooms in America. This is the general rule across the country as far as I know. If the cards have not touched the muck, they are considered live and can be retrieved.
So, the dealers at the horseshoe do not gather cards that have been discarded face down towards the center and muck them? or are you saying that in this supposed best room in the country, dealers routinely muck cards that have not been acted on?
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Old 07-03-2018, 10:57 AM   #46
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
Correct, folded and dead are two different terminologies. Yes, throwing your hand forward is a "fold", but just because that has happens doesn't imply the hand is dead. The situation you have brought up is a perfect example as to why throwing your cards in doesn't mean that your cards are dead.
Can you explain the difference, in your mind, between 'folded' and 'dead' in this situation? Absent any complicating factors (like a misunderstanding of whether or not you were facing action), how is a folded hand not dead? In what situations do you think it is OK for a player to indicate a fold, then resume playing as if his cards were live? You seem to locked into the idea that the cards were not in the muck. This seems to imply that you would be OK if I declared 'Fold', then held onto my hand and declared it live after the other players hands were mucked.

How does an indication of fold when facing action not kill a hand immediately?
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:16 PM   #47
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

Ruling is probably correct although the rule may not be.

As far as I am concerned, unless there is a specific rule about forward motion with cards, if a player still has his/her hand, the hand is live.

That being said, the rule should definitely be that releasing the hand forward is a dead hand.
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Old 07-03-2018, 03:30 PM   #48
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

deuce ... I don't see you in the Hammond Thread, may want to check it out.

I haven't played enough in Hammond to have a solid opinion, but I will say that it is the most complained about room among Players in my area. And not just from a 'variable' rulings stand point either. All sorts of complaints about the room ...

Now if you want to talk profitability you may have 'one of the best rooms' for that .. You just need to be willing to dodge the room from being in it's own way.

This was the first room (way back) where I learned that you could 'cut and paste' a bet by bringing out 80 and only betting/calling 35.

As far as this thread .. That hand should be declared 'as being folded', thus dead, unless this Player has a habit of this action previously. And even then this is a good point in time to teach them that it's a bad 'habit' to have since it caused others to act 'out of turn'. GL
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:28 PM   #49
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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That being said, the rule should definitely be that releasing the hand forward is a dead hand.
More or less, that is what the rule says.
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Old 07-03-2018, 04:33 PM   #50
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Re: Interesting “is hand live?” situation...

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Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
The Horseshoe in Hammond, Indiana is one of the rooms, and it's one of the best rooms in America. This is the general rule across the country as far as I know. If the cards have not touched the muck, they are considered live and can be retrieved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by deuce24off View Post
Correct, folded and dead are two different terminologies. Yes, throwing your hand forward is a "fold", but just because that has happens doesn't imply the hand is dead. The situation you have brought up is a perfect example as to why throwing your cards in doesn't mean that your cards are dead.
So where you work, a player can fold (toss his hand forward when facing a bet) and then after seeing the rest of the table also fold, he can retrieve his hand and decide to call so long as the dealer hasn't mucked it yet? C'mon man, you are making zero sense here.
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