I haven't seen this discussed here, but maybe I am reading the wrong forums.

Anyway, Horseshoe Las Vegas has recently increased their rake to $6+$2. I have heard the MGM Las Vegas has done the same. The Horseshoe management has led me to believe that this is also happening at Caesars Las Vegas.

This is a 20% rise in rake. It moves Vegas much closer to California and Europe if this becomes the norm.

Understandable, but disappointing non-the-less.

That's still lower than much of the Northeast.

My suggestion to the mods is that you may want to create a rake containment thread.

as employee wages go up, rake is going to go up, it will never go down, its why small stakes poker is a trap.

It's been discussed here: https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/1...-rake-1830158/

Probably gonna be the new standard in Vegas.

It’s a big deal and hurts the sustainability of the games in the long run but there is not much you can do as costs are going up everywhere. As I said in the other thread, playing time games is really the only remedy. When you add promo (which in my area is 3, but rake is still five max for now) it sucks so I try to play PLO. Bottom line is rec players are even less likely to win enough to keep them coming, marginal winners become break even or losers and lose interest and ultimately there are fewer games during non peak times. It would be nice if they added an ante to make games bigger or something but they won’t (or make 2-5 entry level). Basically the trend for poker because of this stuff and other factors doesn’t seem great at lower levels especially.

6/2 is the norm rake in most rooms in Florida

Those comparing NE and FL rooms rake to LV also need to consider many of the Nae and FL room are promo-fests. Promos end and rooms empty. Maybe the rooms in LV will follow this biz model but the current successful room in LV are far from promo-fests.

Vegas has trailed the trend of $6 rake for a long time .. with CV getting in the way no doubt. But with the record numbers shown during WSOP and most of the Players actually paying more where they normally play this is a no brainer in Vegas, it just came down to who would be first.

A (pretty weak) article on hightstakesdb.com was published Jan 5th about the increase at MGM causing 'concern' in the Poker World about the sustainability of profitable poker.

Poker is entertainment to most .. actually cheaper than slots or pit games for most as well .. so a MASSIVE 20% increase in rake is really lost in the fact that it's only 0.5% of a $200 pot. And for the most part Players don't look at rake to begin with.

Is poker still profitable? Yes, and I'm not going down the rabbit hole of how to correlate an extra $20/hour coming off the table and how it affects a profitable Player's win rate. GL

MGM Las Vegas has not raised their rake. It is still $5+2

I think this hits the target.

Low limit poker used to be easily beatable. Whether it was through pot control or just outplaying other players post flop it didn't matter. The increase in rake calls for a small adjustment to that calculation. The ability to reliably steal small to medium pots ($60 - $100) has drastically gone down in value as it has become %20 more expensive due to the rake increase.

Unfortunately that means tightening up preflop which sucks and is bad for the game.

Pretty sure this is a 14.2% rise in rake. Assuming it is going from $7 to $8.

Also, there may be a reason for it like adding a bad beat jackpot or best hand every half hour bonus. But if not then inflation hits again...

Just found out my local casino (Crown in Melbourne, Australia) has "restructured" its cash games. Below is now the smallest game on offer.

NLHE (full ring)
$2/$5 - $10 straddle optional
Turbo (30 secs, $1 for additional time)
Buy-in: $300 - $1,000
Rake: 10% - capped at $25

Is this reasonable in terms of rake? Is it beatable? Not sure if there's anyone here who's played there recently. I haven't been there for 3-4 years. The old 2/5, from what I remember, was usually stacked with decent regs.

California has a full or near full drop on any flop (I say "near full" because I've heard some clubs now drop extra when rivers or even turns are reached). This is much worse than rake in that games aren't always super loose and it's disgusting that on a small pot to see most of the flop money taken away. I believe this is one of the main reasons why the Los Angeles County clubs (Commerce/Bike/Hollywood Park/The Gardens/Hustler and Lucky Lady (ex-Normandie) are doing so poorly. And yes they do poorly. I played from 1981 to 2009 and the game count is way down (old men who aren't OMCs can use Bravo and Poker Atlas!). I now live far away from California and a proportional rake removes what I call "the undercurrent of anger" so prevalent in Los Angeles area poker. It's also why you can't have games with very small blinds.

That said I was surprised when many of the card rooms in my area didn't increase the blinds on the smallest games from 1/2 to 1/3 after the Covid shutdown. After many years of inflation a 1/3 isn't any bigger than 1/2 was about 15 years ago. Plus the standard open raise in 1/3 is usually to $10 rather that $7 as it is in the 1/2 (hint: I don't live in Texas or Florida). When you play mostly using $5 chips (instead of a mix of $5 and $1 chips) it increases the speed of the game which is good for player and card room alike.

Yea I mean Cal rake is horrible but in my experience there the games are almost always very good so it does make up for it (of course if it is just ok or bad you have to get up immediately so you aren’t decimated by rake). There rake is probably so high because they are taxed so much and higher costs (I am sure the Cali min wage and other requirements are very costly). It sucks but they aren’t interested in pricing it so pros and serious players make money. As a limit player I wish I lived out there and could play 20-40, 40-80 etc high rake notwithstanding.

The $2 is a promo drop, not rake. 20% rake increase is accurate.

Those bonuses and jackpots would come out of the promo money.

I'm OK with a high rake (to an extend it drives away nits) but I don't like the way it's taken - all at once on the flop rather than proportional. The day games in California aren't as loose (like most places) and I do think seeing $7 taken from a $13 pot turns off all but the most oblivious patrons. Table count is way down.

I took a ten year break from poker starting around 2010 and was mostly a limit player myself (15/30, 20/40 and occasionally 40/80 mostly holdem)_ Speaking to a friend who has now passed it seemed reasonable sized limit almost disappeared about seven or eight years ago but looking at Bravo it seems it's back somewhat at Commerce and The Bike. Hard to tell at the Gardens because their app doesn't work too well. Here on my part of the East Coast it seems there is almost no limit games at a reasonable stake.

My understanding is they take it that way because standard rake is illegal (ie it can’t be based on pot size so it is a per hand drop or for a service, like delivering a flop, delivering a turn and delivering a river). No consolation if you are in a tight game of course but I haven’t been in many in ca (but again mostly a limit player). Cali still has more limit hold em games than anywhere in the world…commerce has at least a couple 20, 40, 60, 100 limit hold em games almost always, Bike has multiple 20 half kill, hustler has 25-50 games. The rake is high but games are good so never understand why people don’t branch out and play something besides no limit hold em (even if just for variety)

Regardless of where the rake goes adding $1 to a prior $7 rake is 14.2% not 20%.

When you win a pot and $7 gets taken do you think to yourself oh the rake was only $5? Playing at whatever level the total rake is, is what matters. It can determine whether or not you will chop pre-flop. And it can also determine how tight you need to be playing.

The other problem with pretending that $2 promotion is not part of the rake is acting like the money will all come back to the players. But interestingly the casino gets to gain interest on all of the promo rake until it has to be paid out. And not all promotional $ end up being distributed to players. In some bad beat cases the casino will always keep 20% in the "pot" so that the promo will continue to look decent. In some cases the casino stops the promotion and distributes it in a particular way that affects certain games but not all players. And if the casino goes under, I have seen bad beat jackpots disappear as part of the bankruptcy proceeding.

In the case of bad beat jackpots, its like playing the lottery. Do you consider that you are not spending money on lottery tickets because the money (or 80% of it) will come back to all people who are buying tickets? [I have never been at a table where a bad beat jackpot was hit]

In the case of best hands jackpots (like for $200) which occur every hour it has less to do with how much is being collected and more to do with how many players are there (like tournaments with guarantees that haven't been hit). But even then the point of the promo isn't that it is costing nothing but that there will be players playing hands like 52s for preflop raises and figuring out who they are (they often include me)

I also have never hit a BBJ, and I don't like promo drops anymore than you do, but they're not as bad as additional rake, and they're not called rake.

In fact, I don't disagree with anything you say above except for your terminology and your math. I just don't know why you want to make a rake increase seem less bad by calling it a 14.2% increase instead of 20%.

If it looks like rake and is taken out of the pot like rake is, then it's rake

No. Rake increased 20% while the promo drop stayed the same. Words matter. If you want to die on a hill of pretending words mean something different then so be it.

Words matter. Rake has a specific meaning.

Actually it does. By law. Maybe not all at once, but eventually it gets returned to players.

I have been at multiple tables where bad beats have been hit. Also, not all promos are bad beats. Sure players play differently when promo money is involved. Good poker players adjust to other players and how they play. If others players play bad because of promos, why are you complaining?

I'm not complaining. I'm just stating the obvious.

If I am playing in a game where $7 is taken out of the pot I don't pretend that its $5.

All of my strategies are based on the pot size and the actual total rake (including promos). I don't pretend that $2 is going to come back to me so its not part of pot or implied odds.

Yes the "rake" has increased by 20% and you can pretend that that is what matters. But it doesn't.

I apologize for my response.

In fact it turns out I don't use the rake as part of my pot odds or implied odds calculations. There are circumstances where i do in small pots where I can see what the reduction looks like. But thats it.

I do think that the overall total amount pulled out matters not just the "rake". I assume that I will not be winning promos or best hand type things. And I get that its the casinos profit but its just a dollar more. I try not to play small stakes where the rake and promo $'s are a high percentage of the overall pots.

To cut it down as far as you can go here ..

High Hand Day .. SB says "Let's run it" and tosses in $10 .. BB agrees and they check it down to Showdown.


$16 is then pushed to the 'winner' and 2+2 goes bye bye to rake/promo. That's a pretty nasty clip. And If I'm in the SB when that happens I usually give the $10 back to the BB and don't bat an eye if the BB doesn't give anything back to me. Certainly not +EV, but it's part of the day and I'm willing to 'gamble' in those spots. It's OK to play good some of the time and (consciously) gamble a bit to show the table you're not all about winning poker.

20% 'rake' OMG .. what the heck .. "I'm never coming back" is always heard but never followed through on.

It would be interesting to see how most Rec Players define 'Rake'. In my circles Rake is only what the house keeps .. and that is because 25-50% percent of play is at home games, which don't have Promo drops. So while true math should require you to include the Promo Drop, it's not commonplace in our area in order to compare the House number to number. GL


PS .. And this forum has gone where it rarely goes .. to 'government' calculating. One side says one number and the other side says another. And while it's pretty simple here, when the DC boyz do it they don't tell you the basis numbers.

Perfect example .. Budget calls for $96, department spends it all and gets $100 the following year. They only spend $96 again, but come out and say that they came in 4% under budget compared to last year in order for everyone to pat them on the back.


PSS .. Yes, we could both limp to avoid any rake at all in our room. But if I'm going to do this I'm going to make sure the $20 is in there from the get go .. and hopefully garner a tip for the Dealer whereas it's rarely a tip comes out of a $4-6 pot.

True, but it's a lottery where the payback is 100%. Believe me, I hated when typical promo drops went from $1 to $2, but it has no change in the EV of how much each player will win or lose.