I HATE $5+2 RAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - Poker Card Room

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I HATE $5+2 RAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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06-09-2021 , 01:22 PM

Maximus215

banned

Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 21

I absolutely loathe $5+2 rake at many cardrooms in the United States!!!!!! The main problem is the rake is essentially $8+0 all the hours high hands are not running, which is usually 14+ hours a day. The rake was $4+1 in Vegas and Atlantic City for the longest time and that was bearable. Now, it's 33% higher per hand!!! A casino in my city is charging $8 a hand 14 hours a day for $1-$2NLH. It's insane. Changes need to be made to these cardrooms!

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06-09-2021 , 01:30 PM

IhateJJ

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 460

easy solution. stop playing in those games.

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06-09-2021 , 01:42 PM

GoodOlKevin

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,477

So don’t play them.

The end

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06-09-2021 , 01:57 PM

Maximus215

banned

Join Date: Jun 2021 Posts: 21

All the cardrooms in Florida, Maryland, Pennsylvania are $5+2 rooms. It's a problem.

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06-09-2021 , 03:18 PM

bolt2112

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 10,290

Most of the cardrooms in South Florida have high hand promos running at all times, so at least the +2 can be viewed as rakeback.

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06-09-2021 , 03:36 PM

Quadstriker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,333

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06-09-2021 , 03:46 PM

SuperGrover123

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2020 Posts: 156

I thought more take was good?

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06-09-2021 , 03:57 PM

dinesh

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jun 2010 Posts: 4,410

Haha I don't really do memes, but I have that rake one saved in my poker photo album from 2012. Awesome.

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06-09-2021 , 04:05 PM

natureboy

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 247

Either don’t play in those casinos and go to another casino to play that fits your rake needs or you can play at an underground/home game.

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06-09-2021 , 04:31 PM

#10

checkraisdraw

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2018 Posts: 2,879

JuSt DoN’t PlAy!!!

Yeah you guys love 8 dollar rake, that’s why you play, right? Tf out of here

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06-09-2021 , 06:09 PM

#11

DumbosTrunk

Verified Coach PLO5

Join Date: Apr 2017 Posts: 7,317

Switch to omaha, there's no jackpot drop in most games.

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06-09-2021 , 07:29 PM

#12

Koss

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 7,096

I definitely prefer it if the +2 is a traditional BBJ that's truly 0 ev vs. other types where the ev changes based on when you play. You can't fight city hall tho man.

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06-09-2021 , 11:26 PM

#13

Numbnutlow

grinder

Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 430

Poker sucks.

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06-10-2021 , 06:47 AM

#14

American Express

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 503

$5+$2 is not $8, right?

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06-10-2021 , 11:45 AM

#15

bolt2112

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 10,290

Quote:

Originally Posted by American Express

$5+$2 is not $8, right?

Presumably, the $1 tip is assumed.

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06-10-2021 , 01:16 PM

#16

natureboy

journeyman

Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 247

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolt2112

Presumably, the $1 tip is assumed.

A true rake nit would think of it like 5 + 2 + 1(presumed tip) = $8 lol.

Assuming the $2 is going to a BBJ jackpot or a promotion bonus, it is what it is. If that’s how the room is going to attract players to play there, I’m fine with it. It’s not like the actual rake went from $4 to $10 all of a sudden. Yea the minor rake increase does add up but that’s the cost of playing poker.

I’m used to seeing underground 1/2 NL games that rake up to $25 per pot. Now that’s a major difference !

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06-10-2021 , 01:34 PM

#17

madlex

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 17,436

When I moved the thread from NVG I was wondering if I should remove a couple of the exclamation points from the title. Now I'm glad I didn't.

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06-13-2021 , 01:22 AM

#18

WereBeer

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 10,700

I pay 10% up to $15 but it doesn't matter when the game is beatable.

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06-13-2021 , 11:07 AM

#19

holmfries

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 6,301

After years of complaining we finally got the room I play in to switch a game to a time
rake. I figure the rake is about half for me as compared to the 5+2

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06-14-2021 , 06:49 AM

#20

Moneyline

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,287

Quote:

Originally Posted by holmfries

After years of complaining we finally got the room I play in to switch a game to a time
rake. I figure the rake is about half for me as compared to the 5+2

This is only the 2nd time I've ever heard of players successfully lobbying to cut the rake. Congrats!

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06-15-2021 , 12:31 AM

#21

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Hi Everyone:

In my new book Cardrooms: Everything Bad and How to Make Them Better; An Analysis of Those Areas Where Poker Rooms Need Improvement there is a chapter titled "Excessive Rake," and here it is:

When I first began to play poker in the early 1980s, the game was mostly $3-$6 Jacks-or-Better to Open Draw Poker and the time charge, since rake was not allowed in California at that time, was $0.50 every half hour. This low rake helped me to survive my initial plays which allowed me to become a regular poker player in the cardrooms of Gardena California.

Today, the rake in a game this size, which would be approximately equivalent to $2-$4 limit hold ’em, would be at least $5 (including a promotion drop), making it very difficult for a new player to survive and become a regular player. And notice that I said a “regular player” and not a professional player which would take longer to achieve.

As a result, today’s cardrooms, for a short-term gain in revenue, are probably reducing the number of games that they offer and players who participate. This means, again, that their long-term revenue is most likely lower than it could be. But the problems that high rake causes are even more serious.

To start, a high rake encourages tight play which is not good for the health of the games since it reduces the amount of action that a game offers. And as stated before, most players want a game with lots of action. The better players understand that there are a lot of hands which would be correct to play if there was no rake or only a small rake. But with today’s high rake, these players will now fold hands which in a non-rake game they would play.

This means that either the rake should be lowered, or the game should switch to a time charge. Of course, switching to a time charge still doesn’t solve the problem of too much money coming off the table, but it should help some by helping to make the game better by producing a little more action.

Another problem has to do with short-handed games. Even if the rake is reduced to account for fewer players at the table, the money collected via the rake may still be higher than a standard game simply because so many more hands will be dealt. As a result, in my opinion, rake reductions for short games should be even more than what is currently standard. In addition, notice that this possibly higher amount of total rake is coming from even fewer players (at the table), and this occurs in a situation where the cardroom would like to keep the game going. Consequently, here’s another example of today’s high rake hurting the games in the long run.

Props, who are players being paid by the house to play in games and whose main purpose is to help start games and keep games going, also have a negative effect on the rake. All of this will be addressed later in the book. See the chapter “Props” starting on page 110. For now, be aware that I think that those poker rooms that use props should try to reduce their reliance on them.

This now leads to an obvious question. What is the right amount of rake that a poker room should take?

First, we need to understand that poker rooms have a right to make a profit. If a poker room can’t do this, then expect it to eventually close. Also, the expenses to maintain a poker room vary from cardroom to cardroom. So, don’t expect the rake to be exactly the same everywhere.

However, I believe that a mediocre recreational player should win about on-third of his four-hour sessions (of live play). And along with the structure of the game, the rake should be contributing to achieving this suggestion.

Notice that this leads to a specific point. The rake should not be the same (as it currently is) in games of different stakes. That’s because to reach the one-third estimate, the small stakes games would require a smaller rake. Of course, this will make the dealer’s job a little more difficult, but someone who’s supposed to be a professional dealer should be able to handle this.

As to what the rake should currently be to help keep the games in balance which should assure their growth, in my opinion the maximum rake in a $1-$2 or $1-$3 no-limit hold ’em should be $3, and in a $2-$5 no-limit hold ’em game, it could go to $4. Also, these rake estimates include any money that goes for promotions.

In limit hold ’em, my recommendation for games below $10-$20 would be $2, and at $10-$20, a $3 max rake should work. These rake estimates should also hold for seven-card stud. And limit games at $20-$40 or higher, should go to a time charge as most currently do.

Another point, which the above hints at, is if the poker room went to these rake sizes and ended all their promotions, that should be fine, and in my opinion would also be a good decision. Remember, the lower rake can be presented as the promotion itself. There are already a small number of well received low-limit games in Las Vegas where a $3 rake and no promotion drop (meaning that these players are not eligible for any promotions) are already in use.

Best wishes,
Mason

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06-15-2021 , 12:37 PM

#22

Quadstriker

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15,333

Yeah I disagree with a lot of that, though I have little interest in a drawn out discussion about it.

I've worked in places that have tried cutting back on rake. It doesn't lead to a significant enough increase in business to justify it. I've seen the books.

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06-15-2021 , 04:34 PM

#23

Mason Malmuth

Former Top Dog

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 13,014

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quadstriker

Hi Quad:

Reducing rake to the right amount won't immediately show an increase in business. It's takes time to develop new players. But in the long run it should make a big difference.

Best wishes,
Mason