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Old 09-25-2018, 04:04 PM   #26
WereBeer
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by yoolykeme View Post
Okay, another question.

What is the appropriate level of berating that someone should get if they did execute a slowroll?
Are we talking about how a winning player should react to a slowroll or the kind of reaction one can expect to get when slowrolling someone? Because that's two different things.
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Old 09-25-2018, 04:59 PM   #27
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

The latter.

I equate slowrolling to being cut off in traffic. Yea, they did something douchey, so you get to honk at them. Maybe lay on your horn for a couple of seconds. But do you berate the other player? Make a scene? People tend to think in terms of the bowl they are in, and in my room there are players that obviously think they are popular, well-known, respected, etc. in the room, and sometimes they don't realize that life extends outside of the poker room. Just like road rage, you don't know that the guy you're honking at has a gun, just the same way you don't know the real life of the person that you are berating publicly in a poker room might have tendencies outside of the room that might be triggered. Just a thought bc I'm sure that in any room, there's some guy that thinks he's king of the hill.


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Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
Are we talking about how a winning player should react to a slowroll or the kind of reaction one can expect to get when slowrolling someone? Because that's two different things.
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Old 09-25-2018, 05:03 PM   #28
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
If this was an isolated incident, then sure, you didn't do anything wrong. However, your title has the word "again" in it. That suggests that this type of behavior is regular for you. I suspect you aren't telling the whole story.

While the villain shouldn't allow you to get under his skin, you did imply you had a weak hand with your statement. His hesitation should have told you that he didn't have a big hand either. The old saying, "don't tap the glass" still applies in live games. Not that it is wrong to say something, but every time you manage to get people angry at you, you turn the table from a loose, fun loving group of people into a sullen mob, or worse. That's bad for your profits.
1. This.

2. I think it's important to point out here that you volunteered the information. What you said is totally fine if someone asks you if you want a call - when you volunteer information, it's way more dicky than if you were pressed.
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Old 09-25-2018, 05:36 PM   #29
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by BDHarrison View Post
If you were being insincere about not wanting a call, then you were kind of being a dick. If you were sincere, that suggests a fear of draws that is exploitable.
The actual hand villain had is roughly a breakeven call. Hero definitely prefers to see villain fold when considering villain's entire range that could call off.

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Originally Posted by yoolykeme View Post
But what's the problem in showing after the second board is shown? It's the same thing as showing after the first board is dealt when running once.
You have to show your cards unless villain volunteers to show first when he isn't obligated to, and you lose both boards. What benefit is it to you to not show right away? Don't even wait until the decision to run it once/twice.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:04 PM   #30
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

I just try to refrain from comments when people lose/are losing in the hand and I donít know them really well. Some people will get mad at anything because they need a way to direct their frustration.

I also wouldnít make comments like you made because 1. It makes you seem like a nit (you donít want action.... you should be begging god to be all in as often as possible because you just want action) 2. Makes people frustrated (they think this guy didnít even want a monster and I canít get a good hand) 3. Shows your perception of peopleís ranges/your ranges are tighter then people want them to be (you want action because people could be sticking in piles dead when you have this hand) 4. People think your weaker then you are so it could be an inadvertent slowroll.... etc. you should be aiming to make comments that imply the OPPOSITE of what this comment implies because it creates an atmosphere that is more conducive to gambling and therefore a better game.
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Old 09-25-2018, 06:55 PM   #31
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

Comment is a huge nit roll imo. I wouldn't have made a scene like V did (nor play the hand the way V did), but I would definitely be pissed off that you opened your mouth like that after luckboxing a set in a multiway 3bet pot. The fact that he was tanking is a slam dunk indicator that you are now a huge favorite in the hand.

If I was at the table I would have taken V's side just to keep him in the game longer.
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:33 PM   #32
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

I would never be in this situation, since if someone asks me about running multiple boards I always say I want us to flip over our cards first so I can make the decision.

Is this being douchey?
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Old 09-25-2018, 09:37 PM   #33
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

Yes! This was my point! He was priced in to call. he could have gone either way. Just like shoving pre with AK vs 66 or visa versa, sometimes, you just want to take it down.




I did show first. I just showed after the runouts. It's a pretty normal thing in our room and not showing before the runouts wasn't an issue. I agree that there's no benefit, but I gather that some players are more comfortable waiting until all the cards are dealt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
The actual hand villain had is roughly a breakeven call. Hero definitely prefers to see villain fold when considering villain's entire range that could call off.



You have to show your cards unless villain volunteers to show first when he isn't obligated to, and you lose both boards. What benefit is it to you to not show right away? Don't even wait until the decision to run it once/twice.
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Old 09-26-2018, 05:09 AM   #34
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by WereBeer View Post
Are we talking about how a winning player should react to a slowroll or the kind of reaction one can expect to get when slowrolling someone? Because that's two different things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by yoolykeme View Post
The latter.

I equate slowrolling to being cut off in traffic. Yea, they did something douchey, so you get to honk at them. Maybe lay on your horn for a couple of seconds. But do you berate the other player? Make a scene? People tend to think in terms of the bowl they are in, and in my room there are players that obviously think they are popular, well-known, respected, etc. in the room, and sometimes they don't realize that life extends outside of the poker room. Just like road rage, you don't know that the guy you're honking at has a gun, just the same way you don't know the real life of the person that you are berating publicly in a poker room might have tendencies outside of the room that might be triggered. Just a thought bc I'm sure that in any room, there's some guy that thinks he's king of the hill.
Well a proper slowroll, which is not what I would consider you did BTW, it's actively offensive to most poker players. So you can expect that some people will go off like a frog in a sock, much like if you cut people off in traffic, sooner or later someone is going to chase you down in order to tailgate or brake-check you.

Some people are aggressive idiots who don't consider consequences and will absolutely do stupid things to punish someone else. So it's a good idea not to go around provoking people at random.
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Old 09-26-2018, 10:17 AM   #35
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by yoolykeme View Post
I'll admit that there's some emotion running through me when there's a race for a decent amount of chips, so I sometimes make comments for my own sake to release the tension. I was genuine, though, about not wanting a call and would have been happy to take down the pot without the potential swing. Villain is tight old man type and I'm crazy range Asian, so whatever.

But what's the problem in showing after the second board is shown? It's the same thing as showing after the first board is dealt when running once.

I just don't see how my comment in between the call and the runout was egregious. I REALLY didn't want a call. I agree that I probably shouldn't say anything, so maybe I'll work on that.

Still, he should have 4-bet KK pre.
I always show immediately after called in an all-in situation when there are cards still to be dealt. Its a courtesy to the people who called my bet. They can see what cards they are looking for. Or if they are drawing dead. And I am obligated to show first anyway so it changes nothing for me.

But every now and then in a cash game the other guy turns over his cards too. So it makes it more fun and interesting for me as well.

Your comment wasn't egregious per se. But the problem isn't how we see it in an objective sense. Its how the other guy sees it in the moment. And because you are so likely to be ahead with a set, there is room for misinterpretation. It doesn't surprise me that the other guy was old. Typical old school protocol is to say nothing when you are ahead rather than risk rubbing it in and causing hard feelings.
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Old 09-26-2018, 11:37 AM   #36
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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…..Your comment wasn't egregious per se. But the problem isn't how we see it in an objective sense. Its how the other guy sees it in the moment. And because you are so likely to be ahead with a set, there is room for misinterpretation. It doesn't surprise me that the other guy was old. Typical old school protocol is to say nothing when you are ahead rather than risk rubbing it in and causing hard feelings.
This.
OP, what you said wasn't really wrong.
When someone says that they hadn't want a call, it often means that they had a strong -- but vulnerable -- hand (as here), and preferred the smaller pot at no risk vs. the bigger pot at some risk (even though the latter was much more EV+). I would have interpreted your comment this way, and there was no particular reason why Villain should have necessarily thought that you meant you had a weak hand. (Although apparently he did interpret it to mean that you were very weak.)

BUT... You really cannot anticipate how other players are going to interpret your comments during or after a hand, especially when they lose.. A lot of players get really upset when they lose a big pot they expected to win, and will seize on any comment you might have made to vent their disappointment.
So if "This has been happening a lot lately..." to you, you might want to consider cutting back on the attempts to be "conversational" during or after a hand. Especially when you win a big pot, it's usually best just to say nothing.
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Old 09-26-2018, 03:56 PM   #37
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by MJ88 View Post
TA lot of players get really upset when they lose a big pot they expected to win, and will seize on any comment you might have made to vent their disappointment.
This is something I worked out pretty quickly when I started playing live and I have a hard policy to say nothing when I win a pot (unless they say nice hand or similar which of course I acknowledge politely).

EDIT

I think my epiphany was overhearing one reg grumbling to another reg about a hand where somebody sucked out on him for a moderate pot and had the temerity to apologise, 'so annoying, I hate that, you're not sorry' etc. Mental note: say nothing when you win.
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Old 09-26-2018, 09:12 PM   #38
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

Here's an update:

Played in the game today. He and I run into each other in the washroom and he apologizes. He realized that he was priced into his whole calling range and that he gets why I just wanted to take it down.

Moving forward......
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Old 09-28-2018, 09:45 PM   #39
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
Villain is just whining because he lost, but next time table your hand before making comments like this if you want to avoid ruffling any feathers. You were the last aggressor so you're obligated to show first anyway.
First it sounds like he did show first. But he was no obligated to do so. No action on river so showdown is in order of default action. But of course room could have a diff rule.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:00 PM   #40
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
I always show immediately after called in an all-in situation when there are cards still to be dealt. Its a courtesy to the people who called my bet. They can see what cards they are looking for. Or if they are drawing dead. And I am obligated to show first anyway so it changes nothing for me.
The downside to this is that by extending to them this courtesy, they will quite often not extend the courtesy back. While I have no problem giving them the opportunity to see what cards they are looking for, I too would like to know where I stand before the cards are run out, so that I too can sweat what I need to hit or avoid.

It has happened so many damn times where in a situation like OP's hand I shove, get called, turn over my bottom set, turn and river are blanks, and then villain turns over a small flush and breathes a sigh of relief. Like seriously, **** off dude.

I think usually what I do is once called allin, I'll say to the caller "shall we show?" and if he says no then I won't show until after (I'll turn my hand over right away after the river, of course). But there's no way I'm going to let him get a full info sweat while I'm in the dark.
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Old 09-29-2018, 03:48 PM   #41
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

I have no strong feelings whatsoever about whether all-in players show at showdown or earlier, but I'm having a hard time thinking of a less valuable piece of information than a "full info sweat".
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Old 09-29-2018, 04:21 PM   #42
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

My point of view is simple. I want to win the pot, and I can't win the pot unless I turn my hand over. Ideally, my opponent will never turn his hand over and throw it into the muck instead.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:28 PM   #43
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by Fore View Post
First it sounds like he did show first. But he was no obligated to do so. No action on river so showdown is in order of default action. But of course room could have a diff rule.
All rooms near me have a rule that the last aggressor shows first. I know of rooms where order of showdown goes as you say, but not when action ended with an all-in on a previous street.

I was saying he should show as soon as his all-in was called.
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Old 09-29-2018, 07:42 PM   #44
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

Call him a donkey for his horrific preflop play. If he continues to run his mouth then beat him without mercy. Beat him until your hands hurt.
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Old 09-29-2018, 09:47 PM   #45
Mr Rick
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by Double Down View Post
The downside to this is that by extending to them this courtesy, they will quite often not extend the courtesy back. While I have no problem giving them the opportunity to see what cards they are looking for, I too would like to know where I stand before the cards are run out, so that I too can sweat what I need to hit or avoid.
OK a few things here:

1) I am courteous not because I expect anything in return but because I want to like the guy in the mirror. And the Golden Rule thing.
2) Also, it sometimes happens that other people start doing it too.
3) It makes it more fun. This means people will come back. If you are a winner, you will appreciate this.

Quote:
It has happened so many damn times where in a situation like OP's hand I shove, get called, turn over my bottom set, turn and river are blanks, and then villain turns over a small flush and breathes a sigh of relief. Like seriously, **** off dude.
Yes I know it seems like we are initiating the slow roll against ourselves. And sometimes it stings. But I have made it my mission not to be affected at the table by slow rolls of any variety.

Use this as a training ground. I can't tell you how liberating it is not to care when somebody slow rolls me. If they are doing it because they don't win much, then they just don't notice my non-reaction anyway. If they are doing it because they are trying to tilt me then there is a chance, albeit slim, that they will end up tilted because of their fail (this is really hard to do, tilting somebody after they win a big hand, but it is possible and there is nothing as amusing). And if they are doing it because they are a sadist, well then for their sake I hope that they are a masochist as well...
Quote:
I think usually what I do is once called allin, I'll say to the caller "shall we show?" and if he says no then I won't show until after (I'll turn my hand over right away after the river, of course). But there's no way I'm going to let him get a full info sweat while I'm in the dark.
OK some more things:

1) I never ask the other guy. I just do it. I suck it up and do it.
2) You never know who will follow your example.
3) Every now and then when you are behind the other guy will roll over his cards as a courtesy. And if this makes the game more fun for you then it is a cheap upside.

In sum, this type of sportsmanship is worth its weight in gold.

Transcend the game.
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:40 PM   #46
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

Villain is technically correct that your comment is inappropriate. Bigger sets and Jtdd pretty much snap call so..

Not a huge deal but far from postworthy

Some players legit don't like action even when they are ahead but your comment could be tilting if you shove worse hands and villain called with bad equity and still got your misleading commentary
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Old 09-29-2018, 11:45 PM   #47
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

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Originally Posted by DrChesspain View Post
I would never be in this situation, since if someone asks me about running multiple boards I always say I want us to flip over our cards first so I can make the decision.

Is this being douchey?
Yes

Running twice should not require showing the cards, and I think it is extremely obnoxious

Especially because if a player loses 2x or more pots you may have now forced them to show their cards when they would not have had to, normally after nitrolling them in standard spots
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Old 10-01-2018, 04:37 AM   #48
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
OK a few things here:

1) I am courteous not because I expect anything in return but because I want to like the guy in the mirror. And the Golden Rule thing.
2) Also, it sometimes happens that other people start doing it too.
3) It makes it more fun. This means people will come back. If you are a winner, you will appreciate this.


Yes I know it seems like we are initiating the slow roll against ourselves. And sometimes it stings. But I have made it my mission not to be affected at the table by slow rolls of any variety.

Use this as a training ground. I can't tell you how liberating it is not to care when somebody slow rolls me. If they are doing it because they don't win much, then they just don't notice my non-reaction anyway. If they are doing it because they are trying to tilt me then there is a chance, albeit slim, that they will end up tilted because of their fail (this is really hard to do, tilting somebody after they win a big hand, but it is possible and there is nothing as amusing). And if they are doing it because they are a sadist, well then for their sake I hope that they are a masochist as well...

OK some more things:

1) I never ask the other guy. I just do it. I suck it up and do it.
2) You never know who will follow your example.
3) Every now and then when you are behind the other guy will roll over his cards as a courtesy. And if this makes the game more fun for you then it is a cheap upside.

In sum, this type of sportsmanship is worth its weight in gold.

Transcend the game.
I can get behind a lot of this. I'm actually a super friendly guy at the tables, for the sake of enjoying myself and creating a fun, friendly atmosphere, plus it's good for the game.

My asking the opponent if we should show our cards once the money is all in is exactly for the sake of keeping the game friendly. If he says no, I'm going to respect that, and not show my cards as well (until the board runs out and then I'll flip them immediately). I'm certainly not going to reward him by showing him my cards any way after he explicitly turned down my offer for both of us to show.

I don't get tilted by slowrolls. Even if the occasional one annoys me, I haven't let them affect my play since I was brand new to the game. I will still speak up when getting slowrolled, or whenever there's any sort of behavior that goes against poker etiquette. I won't create a scene or anything, but I'll mention something. Again, it's for the sake of the game in the long run that we hold each other to a respectable level of poker etiquette. That's why threads like this are very beneficial. An informed player base is a happy player base.
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Old 10-01-2018, 10:09 AM   #49
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Re: I got yelled at for being inappropriate again.....

As played, I truly believe you didn't want call.
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