Hey everyone, the other day during a 1/3 session I had a dispute with another player at the table and I would like to hear your thoughts on it.

Situation:

I am utg +2 I look down at AQhh. I raise to $15.

Villain is next to act and he 3bets to $40.

It folds back to me. At this point I think for a little and I 4bet to $115. When I did this I placed a black $100 chip on top of the 3 $15 chips that I had already in the pot.

The dealer announces my raise, and immediately the villain claims that because I only placed in the one black chip that my action was a call... The floor was called and ultimately sided with me.

The obvious rule in question is the 1 chip rule. In the moment I thought I was correct because I did leave my 3 chips in the pot. I wouldn't have been surprised if the floor would had sided with him. What are your thoughts on the incident?

The floor and the dealer were wrong. One over sized chip without saying raise is a call.

Definitely should have been a call. Terrible floor people if they said otherwise.

If you picked up the three chips and brought them back to your stack and re-tossed them in with the $100 chip then that would be different.

It's a call

I've had an almost identical thing happen to me and it was ruled to be a call.

So I was the BB and I was in for $3
Then the BTN raises to $9
I 3bet to $28 by throwing out a green chip ($25 chip) on top of my 3 white chips ($1 chips).

The floor rules that this is just a call. I tried to argue that, since I threw my chip on top of the white chips, it was essentially a 4 chip bet and should thus count as a raise, but they said that it doesn't matter: I still should've announced raise, or I should've thrown out more than just 1 chip on top of the current bet.

My 1/3 NL game doesn't allow anything greater than a $25 green chip in play, which helps prevent this problem.

Regardless of what the rule is:

1) The floor is always right, even if they're wrong.

2) In situations like this where there could be some ambiguity to your action it is always best to prevent this by announcing your intentions verbally ("make it $115 total" and then put in whatever chips however you want).

Gandfoldtothe3bet,ldoG

"make it $115 total"

Too wordy.

“Raise”. -toss chip

Or

“$115” -toss chip

This is always a call.

Both of these actions can also be taken as ambiguous (in some universes the floor might rule the first one as a minraise and the second one as $115 on top instead of in total). The floor has likely already ****ed up one decision, I'm not going to let him **** up another one.

Gprotectyourhand,imoG

Ok now you’re just reaching here. Neither of those are ever ambiguous. You say raise and toss a chip, it’s the full amount in every room in the world except for the one that OP plays in. As far as the second, that wouldn’t even happen in OP’s room.

You don’t need to write a thesis explaining your action, you just need to make sure your intention to raise is clear.

I just recently saw this situation ruled a call as well and I don't understand or agree with it. I DO understand and agree that if you don't already have any chips in the pot and you toss one chip without first announcing a raise it should always be a call. But if you already have chips in the pot and you do not remove those chips from the pot and you toss a chip in that is big enough to constitute a raise, why on gods green earth should this not be ruled a raise? If you wanted to call then take your small chips back first...

Just a call. Where was this so we can all know this rule?

This isn't really a strategy question, so I moved it to CCP, which is the forum for rules and etiquette.

It is a call. Previously bet chips do not count when considering whether to apply the oversize chip rule. It's ambiguous whether they count even if you fiddle with them first. When betting with an oversize chip, it is good practice to always vocalize your action first to make sure you are allowed to do what you intended.

Note that this is an oversize chip ruling, not a one chip call ruling. One chip calls usually refer to an undersized chip being used to signify a full call.

Because the rule states (which 99.99% of rooms follow) one over sized chip thrown into the pot when facing action is a call unless verbally declared otherwise. It has nothing to do with chips already out there.

Because they want to avoid the angle where you throw out the oversize chip first, then read your opponent's reaction first before deciding whether to pull your other chips back and call, or leave them out there and raise.

'Single Silent Chip' is a call (or full chip value opening bet) without something else 'going on'.

Next time just put out the black and pull back just one of the red chips in a single motion and it will be a raise to $110 in most, if not all, rooms.

Announcing 'raise' and tossing out the single black chip is a 'full chip value' raise, not a min raise.

This comes back to intent .. Dealers are not in the 'intent' business whereas some Floors may take it into consideration, which can create mixed rulings and stir up a room in a hurry!! GL

I get that, I just don't see why it would apply here. It makes sense if there is no other chips in the pot since your bet is ambiguous with an oversized chip. To me, it makes no sense when you already have chips in the pot and put in enough additional value to make a raise. It should be a raise IMO, but history is history I guess.

To me this is already covered by other rules and unnecessary. Once you toss in a chip, you should not be able to reach into the pot and take anything back. If you needed change take your small chips back before tossing the oversized chip (or in the same motion). Once you release that oversized chip it should be committed to the pot. It's only ambiguous if it is a single chip action IMO. You can still accomplish the same angle in any casino that doesn't enforce a betting line by reaching out with a full 100 stack and then counting out 40 or so in the pot and pulling the rest back. Same thing though, one motion. Ok, rant over.

Look at it this way. Let's say that after OP bet 15 and was raised to 40, the only chips he had left in his stack were black chips. So how would he make a call? He would have to toss in a black chip. He needs the partial value of the black chip to make the call. So when facing that additional amount of 25 he has to throw in that oversized chip. But to raise, he also needs to throw in that black chip. There are two possible meanings to that black chip.

In order to clarify things, and prevent angleshooting, the rules state that the call will be the default action. Toss the black chip in silently, and the default call happens. If you want to raise, you must state raise. The poker gods could have made it the other way around, and said that when two situations are possible, the raise is the default, and if you want to call you must state that ahead of time. But they opted to use the lower value as the default.

But bets are always ruled to have to happen in one motion. So the only reason this rule exists is so people can flip one chip in without following the one motion rule and then ask for change? To me there are not two possible meanings since you didn't get your change in one motion. It's like a rule to clarify an exception to the other rule that never should have been allowed in the first place.

Maybe that room has a weird room rule for single chip situations?

Otherwise it’s very hard to believe that both the dealer and floor don’t know about a standard rule that should come up at least semi-frequently.

It’s not like we are talking about a once in a blue moon spot but a pretty common situation.

Small note here - in the scenario you described, the $15 in chips should not be in the pot but it front of you still. Dealer will usually never sweep in bets before action for the round is completed.

Agreed, apologies if I wasn't clear. Which is why I said you should have to retrieve them with one motion if you wish to call with an oversized chip.

I'd only rule it a raise if you did something with the 3 chips already in play such as reorder them or pick them up and put them down with the single $100 chip. If you dropped or tossed a single chip, even if they hit the original 3 chips, it would be a call.

I'm expecting this to be ruled a call every time.

Speak up for it to be a raise, or pull at least one chip back and toss at least 2 chips out.