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Old 06-06-2012, 08:23 PM   #26
pfapfap
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST View Post
I tabled my hand in an obvious call, but did not verbalize. Dealer scoops my hand and villan scoops the chips.
This is not an obvious call. In fact, if you tossed your cards forward while showing them, without saying anything or moving any chips, this is an obvious fold.
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:26 PM   #27
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Yeah I'm curious what villain had but also did hero ever table his hand? If hero never opens his hand then villain doesn't know that he had the best hand and villain is less likely to proclaim that he called when he may in fact end up losing the hand after all.

If hero believes or is even pretty sure that villain called then he should tell the dealer to push him the pot. If hero has a reasonable doubt that villain called I might offer a chop.

Heros thoughts are inconsistent at best. If hero really is sure that villain called and is willing to lie to the floor about what he heard then he really does need to go out and have his moral compass reset.
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Old 06-06-2012, 11:24 PM   #28
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

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Originally Posted by Dealer-Guy View Post
How can you say it is an angle shot? The other player said "I call" and the OP heard him then the other player TABLED HIS HAND!

OP admitted he was bluffing and never showed a hand but despite KNOWING the other player had called, he lied about it and took the pot.

What part of this makes you think the other player was angle shooting?
You might have a point but here's what I'm thinking. Villain puts no money in the pot. Villain says something like "callfd." Confusing enough to where there was disagreement at the table. It's definitely suspicious. Just because OP thought he understood what villain was implying doesn't mean villain wasn't up to something.
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:01 AM   #29
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Call.

Fold.

All-in.

Four.

Twelve.

...

These all sound very similar at a poker table.

ProTip: If you don't want to find yourself in a situation where your opponent thinks you said "call" when you really said "fold," try this:

"Pass."
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Old 06-07-2012, 01:25 AM   #30
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

More heat needs to be applied to the dealer here, possibly just as much as OP.

Player says something, let's assume for the sake of argument that the dealer did not hear, and tables his hand. OP (I won't use the term "hero" here) still has cards face down so player has no idea what OP has. Dealer is unsure so a simple "is that a call or fold sir?" and this entire situation is avoided. The hand is face up on the river, how can the dealer possibly think that this was an unambiguous fold?

As for OP, now I have given it some thought I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are new to poker (because if you are not there is no excuse for what you did). When starting out we learn a lot of bad habits from TV and movies where we think poker is more about hustling than playing the game - many of us when starting out did things we would be ashamed of now just because we did not know any better (I still remember my one and only slowroll and didn't understand why everyone was chastising me at the time - happened in my first couple of weeks of playing live). The thing is - it's "poker" not "gotcha". Most winning players don't need to hustle or angle to be decent winners. The ones who resort to these tactics are generally losing players. They think the game is anything goes. Focus on your game and lose the hustling attitude and you may become a winning player. Once you hit showdown the cards speak, the hand is over, if he outplayed you then so be it, learn and move on. It's tough but if you are beaten grit your teeth, pass the chips and learn to be a man.
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Old 06-07-2012, 02:26 AM   #31
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

I agree, I think the bandwagon is a bit harsh on this one. It's a lesson to be learned. I think we can all imagine how this can play out and not seem as black & white as it does on the page.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:02 AM   #32
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

This is pretty bad as it sounds like a pretty clear call. Op took advantage of a dealer who wasnt paying attention ( maybe tired and overworked). I wonder where this took place. It is pretty common for people to verbally say call and not put chips in as verbal is binding and most players don't expose their hand if they are folding.

The dealer should've asked if the player was folding or calling if his speech was unclear. The op should've asked if that was a call or fold but he didn't because be said he knew the guy meant to call. Intent is imo the most important thing in poker and it sounds like the way the guy acted afterwards that it was obv a call. People do not usually storm off and get angry when they actually meant to fold and lose the pot. It would make no sense, especially as they have no seen op's hand to see they got bluffed.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:08 AM   #33
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAWhatALyfe View Post
The guy to his immediate left said "I heard him say call"
Ignoring your obvious scumbagginess, this scumbag should have spoken up too.

Of course, "villain" (or let's call him hero) should have spoken up as soon as it was clear the dealer was mucking his hand and should never table his hand by throwing it.

Last edited by AlexM; 06-07-2012 at 03:18 AM.
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Old 06-07-2012, 03:12 AM   #34
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I believe in objective morality, so I could care less how much youre stuck in the game when youre angleshooting, it's still wrong.
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Old 06-07-2012, 04:35 AM   #35
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Ash View Post
Wow, I might be the outlier here, but I have a slightly different take.

I've been in situations where I had no effing idea what villain said.....
I'm with you here.

Crying foul after the dealer mucked your hand and the pot being pushed to the hero, is way too late. From the moment the villian mumbled some words, to the point where the pot is being pushed, the villian could be on an angle-shoot trying to free-roll you.

OP, do you remember if your cards were mucked before or after villain's objection?
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:00 AM   #36
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

This is another good example of why you should not expect the dealer to protect your hand or your best intrests. They can make mistakes too, just like any other human being! First rule : protect your hand yourself!
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:25 AM   #37
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Thumbs up Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denks View Post
More heat needs to be applied to the dealer here, possibly just as much as OP.

Player says something, let's assume for the sake of argument that the dealer did not hear, and tables his hand. OP (I won't use the term "hero" here) still has cards face down so player has no idea what OP has. Dealer is unsure so a simple "is that a call or fold sir?" and this entire situation is avoided. The hand is face up on the river, how can the dealer possibly think that this was an unambiguous fold?

As for OP, now I have given it some thought I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are new to poker (because if you are not there is no excuse for what you did). When starting out we learn a lot of bad habits from TV and movies where we think poker is more about hustling than playing the game - many of us when starting out did things we would be ashamed of now just because we did not know any better (I still remember my one and only slowroll and didn't understand why everyone was chastising me at the time - happened in my first couple of weeks of playing live). The thing is - it's "poker" not "gotcha". Most winning players don't need to hustle or angle to be decent winners. The ones who resort to these tactics are generally losing players. They think the game is anything goes. Focus on your game and lose the hustling attitude and you may become a winning player. Once you hit showdown the cards speak, the hand is over, if he outplayed you then so be it, learn and move on. It's tough but if you are beaten grit your teeth, pass the chips and learn to be a man.
This
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Old 06-07-2012, 09:27 AM   #38
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Look no one is blameless in this mess.

Villain when facing a bet makes an unclear statement and tosses his cards in without pushing in chips and then allows the dealer to scoop his cards and the board.

Dealer hears an unclear statement and rather than clarifying proceeds to screw things up.

Hero thinks villain probably said call an is willing to lie about it to the floor.

KITN to all involved. Without seeing it it's hard to say but I think there's a fair chance villain was angling here.
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:04 AM   #39
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexdotcom View Post
I'm with you here.

Crying foul after the dealer mucked your hand and the pot being pushed to the hero, is way too late. From the moment the villian mumbled some words, to the point where the pot is being pushed, the villian could be on an angle-shoot trying to free-roll you.

OP, do you remember if your cards were mucked before or after villain's objection?
My cards went into the muck after his cards were mixed with the rest of the deck, the dealer then pushed the pot toward me.

The only other person who said anything at the table apart from Villain (or Hero) as some of you are calling him, me and the dealer was another player who I don't know who during the commotion said "I thought he said fold, too" to myself and the dealer - although not like it matters I suppose.

I am new to poker and looking to improve both my play and etiquette so I wasn't sure exactly where I stood here, but according to the consensus it seems I should of told the dealer to give him the pot because I thought he said call (plus Villain/Hero) also said he said call.

I don't think dealer was unsure really, he seemed to just pull the cards in like any other hand where he thought the player said fold.
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:09 AM   #40
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

I wouldn't give this pot up based on what someone says, if the cards are already gone. I would, however, stop the dealer from mucking someone's cards if I thought I heard the player say "call".

For yourself, when you want to call a bet, hold onto your cards and put chips in the pot. It's the only way to be sure you don't end up like your opponent.
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Old 06-07-2012, 10:15 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAWhatALyfe View Post
I am new to poker and looking to improve both my play and etiquette so I wasn't sure exactly where I stood here
Does it really take experience playing poker to know that lying to steal the pot here is wrong?
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:05 AM   #42
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

I don't fully condone what the OP did, but it is the responsibility of the villian to protect his hand. Period. The way it reads it sounds like an angle for sure, throwing your hand face up in the middle of the table without pushing your chips in is no way to make a definitive call. It is always 100% of the time each players ultimate responsibily to protect ones own hand. Period. I'll bet he 'called' with a marginal hand and was prepared to argue that he folded if he was beat.
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Old 06-07-2012, 07:23 PM   #43
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ganstaman View Post
Does it really take experience playing poker to know that lying to steal the pot here is wrong?
The trouble is that movies / TV do present that exact attitude - that in poker it is perfectly OK to do or say anything to win regardless of how unethical it may be. So in this case I would be inclined to give a new player some latitude and just let them know this is not the done thing and they will learn not to do it again. After all if what happened did not bother OP one bit he would not have come on here asking if it was OK or not, obviously his conscience did tell him that something did not seem quite right. Imho he has taken the butt kicking rather well compared to what many others have done asking similar questions. He now knows not to do this again.

OP, if you think he said "call" that however does not oblige you to automatically muck your bluff, you still have the right to confirm the action with the dealer / other player to make sure (and this will protect you from anglers). Your only responsibility is to confirm action if you think what is happening is not right, not to insist that he called even after the dealer has tried confirming it with him so if the dealer asks him and he remains silent then the dealer mucks his cards you have done enough and tough luck to him.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:07 PM   #44
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAWhatALyfe View Post
...I am new to poker and looking to improve both my play and etiquette..
Are you new to life too? Why do you think that cheating someone out of a pot where they had a winning hand is acceptable? If you are a scumbag at the table, chances are you're one away from the table too.
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Old 06-08-2012, 02:09 PM   #45
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownsbuck View Post
...it is the responsibility of the villian to protect his hand. Period...
He tabled his hand after he called. A clearly tabled hand isn't mucked. Period.
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:33 PM   #46
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAWhatALyfe View Post
Yeah I know, I'm a "*****" for not being honest, but I know it was wrong and if someone is going to make it clear to a dealer regarding his decision, I'm going to try to take advantage.
this and end of thread imo...

oh, just read your justification OP...you were stuck and needed to get unstuck, so its def ok now...scum, see:brad booth
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Old 06-08-2012, 04:45 PM   #47
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Seriously, that is not cool man. Even if you were having a losing session, you still have to be good mannered. You acknowledged you knew his intentions were to call... and you still acted as if he folded. That is really scummy IMHO.

When I have any uncertainty about Villains actions, I always ask, "Is that a call or fold?" It doesn't matter if I'm bluffing or have the nuts.
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Old 02-19-2019, 03:16 PM   #48
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Nearly 7 years later, and I can look back at this and say that what I did was atrocious, I certainly learnt from the mistake I made that night, and would like to think I have come along, both in the way of etiquette and my game.

I'm a regular, and (I'd like to think!) respected winner in Live Low Stakes and am well travelled, having played all over the world and met some great people. I have built up a healthy bankroll and an hourly of nearly 30 p/h in the last 3 years (when I started taking it more seriously and tracking my results)

I am contemplating going full time, but want a bigger life roll before I quit my job.

I'll always be sorry for not speaking up that night, but I can promise you all, I understand how bad it was, and I never did anything like this again.
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Old 02-19-2019, 04:18 PM   #49
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AKAWhatALyfe View Post
Nearly 7 years later, and I can look back at this and say that what I did was atrocious, I certainly learnt from the mistake I made that night, and would like to think I have come along, both in the way of etiquette and my game.

I'm a regular, and (I'd like to think!) respected winner in Live Low Stakes and am well travelled, having played all over the world and met some great people. I have built up a healthy bankroll and an hourly of nearly 30 p/h in the last 3 years (when I started taking it more seriously and tracking my results)

I am contemplating going full time, but want a bigger life roll before I quit my job.

I'll always be sorry for not speaking up that night, but I can promise you all, I understand how bad it was, and I never did anything like this again.
I am very impressed with this last post. Not everybody is willing to learn from their mistakes.

My take on the situation is that you had an opportunity to clear it up after the dealer mucked the other player's cards but before you were awarded the pot (or as the dealer was pushing you the pot but you still had your cards). I would ask the other player if he was calling. Like "Was that a call?". Because his cards were tabled if he meant to call, then his hand should be considered live.

Anyway I identify to some extent. I did something "wrong" at the table when I was first starting out. I thought a player had tossed his cards to me after a hand so that I could look at it, sort of like professional courtesy, but he was just acting cool and flipped his cards sideways and was expecting me to push them to the dealer. Since then I have not taken anything for granted at the table, and I always ask what a player's intent is with regards to looking at their cards.
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Old 02-20-2019, 07:48 AM   #50
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Re: I got caught bluffing, but they reward me the pot.

I don't care if you're three buyins down or not, you're a scumbag if you do stuff like this. Might as well say "I was three buyins in so I followed him to his car and robbed him there."
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