Very much like another thread in here, let me describe situation...

It's LLSNL (£1/£2) and I'm first to act and go all in as a bluff on the river (it's also irrelevant how the hand played out)

Villain is to my immediate left in a 9 handed game. He tanks and eventually says "I'll calfd." - (he wasn't clear at all, but I know that he meant call.)

He throws his hand face up onto the table. I darted my eyes to the dealer to see his initial reaction, knowing that if he reads it for a fold, I can act as though I thought it was a fold too. (You can question my dignity at the end of the thread

The dealer pulls his cards into the middle, mixes with the community cards and rest of the desk. I put my index and middle finger ontop of my each card and push them across the line. The dealer scoops the cards and pushes the pot towards me. At this point I'm thinking, did he actually say fold? I start to count my chips and sure enough, Villain says "That pot is mine...?" The dealer looks at him, as do I and I say "I thought you said fold?" and dealer said "Oh, I thought you said fold."

Cue Villain seeing red "NO, I SAID I'LL CALL! AND FLIPPED MY HAND FACE UP!" At this point I go quiet as I know it's the dealers mistake and potentially a cardroom ruling and if they want my opinion I'm going to say I thought he said fold (I know he said call) I said to the dealer "So what happens now"? And he said "Well, would you chop the pot"? I didn't say anything - the last thing I wanted to do was chop the pot, I was on my 3rd BI and was going to leave if I didn't win the pot or stay but only with the whole pot (I would of been on about 50 BB's and wasn't planning on reloading if I never won this 250 BB pot)

Villain shouts "It's a ****ing joke, I said call" etc etc. Dealer said he will call for a ruling. Cardroom Manager comes over, talks through hand with Villain first - at which point she agrees the pot is Villains. Then dealer talks through hand with Cardroom Manager at which point she apologises and said the pot is Hero's. She said if he doesn't move any of the chips into the middle and the dealer mistakes it for a fold, it's a fold. There's only cameras and no microphones so they are not going to know what was said, and can only go from actions seen.

Cue Villain shouting abuse at the Manager, the Dealer and the rest of the Casino. He barges past everyone and heads towards the cash desk. Earlier on Villain was talking to the guy on his left about how he had been in prison 5 times, was blind in 1 eye etc - not the type of guy I want waiting for me outside!

Still, I was handed the pot. The guy to his immediate left said "I heard him say call" while another whos sat opposite the dealer said "I thought he folded too"

Yeah I know, I'm a "bitch" for not being honest, but I know it was borderline and if someone is going to make it unclear to a dealer regarding his decision, I'm going to take advantage. Plus I was already losing and needed this pot for my money back.

What do you think?

"Hero" is the wrong term to use. You know you did wrong. How can you possibly think it is okay to lie about what you heard and what you felt he intended ("he wasn't clear at all, but I know that he meant call.")? You flat out stole from this guy.

That's not cool at all. You clearly heard him say call and you wouldn't at least chop the pot with him? WOW. Why would you even post that on here? You're a spineless scumbag with absolutely no integrity or respect for the game. Karma is a bitch and it's gonna come back around to you....

I think you should learn from this and alter your behavior for the future.

I can't see how this is remotely borderline. It's borderline between angling and cheating but that's about the only grey area.

You really hurt the integrity of the game and yourself during this hand.

I think it already did when I turned a set and got rivered for a gutshot by a guy who called the same night for my whole stack!

Also I didn't clearly hear him say call (you can see in my post that I thought "did he actually say fold?") when they were pushing the pot towards me.

OK thanks for the feedback

I think you already know what we think. This was not borderline. You cheated him, plain and simple.
The next time you have a situation like this, perhaps you'll decide what kind of person you are a bit differently. I hope so.

That's why I posted - I was conscious this could be a bad decision on my behalf and just wanted to see what you guys thought. I wasn't sure if any of you might of said "Tbf, it's his problem - not yours" kinda thing, I am new to poker and especially Live so keen to see what you thought.

Wow, I might be the outlier here, but I have a slightly different take.

I've been in situations where I had no effing idea what villain said. There have been times when it sure looked like villain was being vague on purpose as an angle shoot to get me to expose my hand. There have been times when I thought I definitely heard one thing, but others at the table have heard another. And there have times when I (and the entire table) have all clearly/definitely/undeniably heard and seen one thing and the dealer just effed it up.

In the very latter case, I immediately try to rectify the situation. Otherwise, and/or if there is even 1% doubt in my mind as to what happened, as a general rule, I just STFU and let the dealer take care of it. If I'm in the hand, my number one rule is PROTECT MY HAND.


In this case, regardless of what you think you heard or not - let me play devil's advocate. Villain says 'callfd', but he 'wasn't clear at all'. I mean, honestly, what the hell is 'callfd'? It could be heard as anything. The dealer didn't take it as a call. Someone else at the table said they heard 'fold' even though you were pretty sure he said 'call'. Villain doesn't put any chips in the middle, and instead just throws his cards forward? Don't know where you play, but that action would be taken pretty clearly as a FOLD at the card rooms I play at.

Look at it this way - if you snap-called and rolled over the nuts, think how easy it would be for Villain to say, "'I never called! I said FOLD! I didn't put any chips in the middle! I said 'Fold!".

How easy do you think it would be for the Floor to enforce a CALL in that situation? I think it would be incredibly tough. In that case, YOU would be in the wrong for not clarifying his action (call or fold) before showing your cards. You'd still get the pot, but you'd be out of luck trying to enforce a call. Same action, but different outcome - and for that reason I have no problem with the ruling as played.

Protect your hand at all times. Villain should have protected his cards until the pot was pushed. I *always* declare my action, make the action, and I don't let go of my cards until I have the pot in my grubby little hands.

If Villain didn't have the nuts, it's impossible to know with 100% certainty if he was clearly trying to call or if he was just angle shooting (no matter how remote, we can't rule out that possibility). So tbh I don't even mind not chopping. If I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he had called and the dealer had just effed up, I mean, that's one thing...but how can we be sure if at least one other person at the table besides the dealer thought it was a fold?

IDK what really happened of course, but this seems like mostly dealer error, that you took advantage of. Guy should have pushed a stack, at least, forward or something! You have to deal with the right or wrong personally. Why did you post this anyway?

OP, so what you are saying is because someone beat you fairly in a hand earlier in the evening, you felt it was acceptable to cheat another player out of a pot, make an enemy and create a table image of a scum sucking douche bag. If you are comfortable with that, then sure, why wouldn't everyone else be okay as well?

I mean every time another player shows down the best hand, shouldn't we all look for a way to steal money for a third player?

By the way, what I think (since you did ask at the end of your OP) is that I would rather play poker with the one eyed convicted felon you cheated out of the pot than with you, if I was at all unclear in the matter.

I think you're a giant douche ******** and I hope you reap what you sow.

No, I was responding to the guy who who said I hope karma comes back and bites you in the ass! I meant it already did because I got rivered for the whole stack later that night, not beforehand.

It also did not effect my table image as the dealer, and at least one other player on the table said "I thought he said fold, too"

I guess I should of put in my original post that I didn't *know* he said call, but I was pretty sure. I would say I was about 95% that I thought he said call, but at the point the dealer pushed the pot towards me and for the few seconds Villain didn't say anything, I did actually think "Oh, he must of said fold" (as he hadn't said anything up until that point)

What is the purpose of your post? Are you looking for someone to say that what you did was fine?

It wasn't.

No, to see whether or not you think I should of said "I thought he said call" and for me to tell the dealer to give him the pot, or whether or not to go with the cardrooms decision

So you want to know if we think you should have said what you knew to be true (or at least 95% true) instead of consciously lying your ass off to steal the pot because you lost money earlier on and somehow feel like you're entitled to always leave a winner?

I don't think you'll find anyone idiotic enough to encourage lying and cheating because you're a little entitled ****.

You're a scumbag.

OK thanks, I'll try and learn from my mistake

I read this and other post you have made trying to modify what we think about you and your actions in this hand.

OP, you do realize that we can go back and read everything you wrote, it's not a memory game. Exactly what you said earlier is there for all of us to read. From your first post I have pulled a few excerpts. I snipped out stuff about what the floor and dealer said since they were not on point.

I added emphasis where it is important.


I don't think you'll answer this question but I'll ask it. The other player did not push chips into the pot before you allowed his hand to be mucked by hte dealer. Did the floor person require that he put the call into the pot? Was he told to do so and did he push those chips in?

There is something here you clearly do not understand about poker(well apparently a number of things). Once you put the money in the pot, it's not yours anymore. Are you stuck, yes but there is no "getting your money back".

However, as far as the guy your screwed over, he deserves to get his money back, all 250 BB's.

You were adult enough to buy into the game 3 times, are you adult enough to pay the man what you owe him?

If not, please never play poker again. That advice alone may well save your life. I'm not threatening you but the people you cheat might be a threat to your life.

Dude you are the worst. You mention multiple times that you may not have heard him clearly but you knew his intention was to Call. You are lucky he didn't wait for you afterwards

this thread life tilts me. I lost a big pot in a very similar way when I was new to live cash. I tabled my hand in an obvious call, but did not verbalize. Dealer scoops my hand and villan scoops the chips. I was still wondering when I would see turn/river lol. Really pissed me off. Floor offered for him to chop and he said no (he had already stacked all the chips)
Also OP you being down for the night doesnt change anything, maybe villan was down that night too....

Sounds like an angle shoot to me unless he had the nuts. I wouldn't have said a word until I heard from the dealer. Out of curiosity. What did he have?

How can you say it is an angle shot? The other player said "I call" and the OP heard him then the other player TABLED HIS HAND!

OP admitted he was bluffing and never showed a hand but despite KNOWING the other player had called, he lied about it and took the pot.

What part of this makes you think the other player was angle shooting?