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Originally Posted by callipygian
So if we agree that the rules aren't great and are primarily structured that way because they're easier to enforce than ideal rules, it seems like the only thing we disagree on is how much judgement people are allowed to use regarding strictness of enforcement of suboptimal rules.
No I believe the rule is the optimal rule for a suboptimal situation. Since we can't be fiat of rule make everyone understand everyone we must deal with the situation and I can see no better rule than English Only (or the local language if it is other than English) during the play of a hand.
Nor is our disagreement about how much judgment people are allowed to use in the enforcement of the rule. Our disagreement is about who gets to use that judgment. But more so you have not argued about strictness of the enforcement of a rule, who have argued for players to have the option to completely waive a rule.
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To go back to a previous comment you made, this is exactly where the "I want to choose who to enforce it against" comes in. If the entire table is Chinese and two people speak Cantonese, it's almost certain that they're expecting a fraction of the table to understand them, and it's unlikely they mean any harm.
Enforcement of the rule is not about whether they mean any harm. 99% of the time that some chucklehead says something against the rules .... they don;t mean any harm. They are to0 dense to understand why what they are saying s a problem, or sometimes they understand but just can't help themselves. They didn't mean any harm. Should the dealer not correct the behavior just because they meant no harm?
I will give you this if a full table of foreign language speakers come in and say we wish to have a private game and in our private game we want to speak a foreign language .... and we understand that since the dealer doesn't speak our language the dealer is unable to police the game to protect us .... then I would be okay with opening a private game for them... I would not let it be a game that others could come into and I would only do it when it didn;t interfere with the business needs of the poker room.
But that is not the same as running a public game and letting them make an adhoc decision to do the same thing.
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If the entire table is Chinese and two people speak French, they're probably not expecting anyone to understand them, and they probably mean harm. They could be wrong on either way (if I were at the table they would be wrong both ways) but combined with their level of play, it's not Setec Astronomy level codebreaking to figure out their motivations.
Again motivation is not my concern. When one guy looks at another guy in the hand with a 3rd player all-in and says "Check it down?" That guy is usually incredulous when I tell him he can't do that....... Thats why he does it on the open because he thinks its fine to do..... So to with the foreign language speakers .... they will say things not because they are trying to cheat but because they think there is nothing wrong with the things they are saying.
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I will make a boast - that if I were to watch a videotape of two people talking at the table with the sound turned OFF, I would be able to get a pretty good handle on whether they care if people understand or not. Like speaking of pirogis, Worm's sigh/eyeroll when Mike uncharacteristically checks his ace would be a good example of someone who - if on camera - wouldn't realize he betrayed his intentions.
but can you tell when the guy turn to his wife sitting behind him and says I would have had top two pair if I hadn't folded? Do you think that may be a problem if someone still in the hand understands what he said?
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I'm not arguing that the rules should change; I'll freely admit that I can't think of a better rule. But I also think that it does more harm than good to constantly chastise talkative players, who are generally worse than their quiet counterparts, in marginal situations.
players should be constantly chastised. They should be advised of the rule and then they should comply. If once in a while they slip up and do it again... something should be said to get them back on the track they were on when complying. If I have to constantly chastise them ... then they are choosing to ignore the rule and they should be asked to leave ..... so constant chastisement should never be needed.