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How much per hr playing live? How much per hr playing live?

03-26-2010 , 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcaruso

if i expect to run around $10/hr my first year of grinding at the newly opened card rooms in pittsburgh and end up doing closer to $18, then fantastic--i certainly don't want to go in expecting to earn $20 and end up feeling like i've failed when i only earn $11.
I think you'll do much better than this. Probably $20/hr minimum. Harrington is right.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 09:07 AM
Hey FoldnDark,
thanks v. much for the words of encouragement--v. cool to have my first post on 2+2 responded to.

i was going over some of my old notebooks last night after i saw your post and i have to agree with your analysis--at least tentatively.

in '06 i made just over $16/hr for 790 hurs (just under 13 dimes on the year); and, for the most part, i wouldn't qualify the games i played in as super-soft. i mean, let's face it, if you feel like ANY $1/$2 game is super-tough, then you really can't be playing all that well; but, i think we all know there are some games that are truly weak. lots of aggressive raising and betting by players who know how to apply pressure in position does not for a soft game make!

on the other hand, throughout the late winter and spring of 08, i played regularly @ mountaineer in chester, wv, and found the games that i was in to be very easily beatable--some of the best i've ever seen, really.

i had a good thing going there. i'd arrive at the cardroom by 10am after having gotten my son to school and made the drive from pittsburgh. when i first sat down i almost always took a seat in the last game left over from the night before. i'd be fresh as a daisy and i'm looking around at at least 3-4 players who were stuck and exhausted from 15 hours of continuous play.

by noon the room would fill up with mostly older players--lots of retirees who'd cut their teeth long ago probably playing limit stud. these players, i found, made ideal opponents for me. there was almost no pre-flop raising to speak of in these games and the players seemed to be of the 'no way some kid is going to EVER bluff me out of a pot while i have top pair' variety. (even though, at a young looking 33, i didn't feel like i was the kid they seemed to think i was )

this is a heavenly combination. see all the $2 flops you can with playable tickets and then just value-bet like it's going out of style whenever you make a big hand--implied odds heaven. it felt like the only way to lose in some of these games was to go completely sideways and start spewing or take some truly awful bad beats (or both). i averaged $24/hr during this period (only about a 300 hr. sample) and certainly didn't feel like i ran exceptionally well. i realize the sample is v. small, but some of these games were SUPER soft.

a lot of what's difficult about the game simply goes out the window when your opponents are so very weak and passive. position is less a factor than in other games when no one's taking command of pots while they have a positional advantage. limping up front with two 5's generally just set a chain of limpers in motion behind me, creating a volume pot and the ideal situation for my hand since there was usually someone happy to pay off when i flopped a set. since virtually all the players were buying in for 150bb, the stacks were just deep enough to make set mining highly profitable.

another key to my success in these games was keeping my sits short. i started at 10 am and set my phone to vibrate at 2pm. if i felt the game was really good and playing another hour made sense, i'd take a short walk and re-set my alarm to ring at 3:15. @ 3:15, i simply quit. period. i NEVER played past 3:15. not once. and most days i simply racked up my win at 2 and called it a day--especially if i had managed to do better than doubling my 200 buy-in. this method prevented me from ever playing tired. most days i booked wins, but quitting loser was simply something i had to do (i had to be back in the city by 5:30 at the latest).

once there's a room 15 mins. from my house, using this short-sit method will be a far more viable way of managing my money and my travel costs will be reduced from highly significant to next to nil.

god, i can't wait; i just hope i can scrape together enough of a bankroll to come out of the gate without too much pressure to have to win on me...i'm even considering a couple folks i know as potential partial backers...

in the final analysis here, the toughness of the games you're in has a TON to do with the answer to the OP. some games with high rakes and competent players may be barely beatable at all, while in the very best games no one can convince me that $20 isn't sustainable...

can anyone direct me to other threads dealing specifically with brick&mortar grinding at the low limits?
pax vobiscum!
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 10:01 AM
To answer the OP's question, any winrate is a good winrate. But at $1/$2 it's hard to surpass $30-$35/hr over a large sample. Accroding to Harrington I think is who said it. You should move up in stakes when you are crushing the game for 15bb/hr. Personally I think you need a sample of about 1000 hours live to get a good idea of what your winrate is realistically.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reapupo
You need at least 1000 hours of live play to have an idea of where you are.
really?? i mean do any winning players actually spend 1000 hours at 1/2 in the first place?

that's like a five hour session every day for 7 months....
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reapupo
You need at least 1000 hours of live play to have an idea of where you are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by career
really?? i mean do any winning players actually spend 1000 hours at 1/2 in the first place?

that's like a five hour session every day for 7 months....
Well at 24/hands per hour, 1000 hours is like 25K hands. 25K hands will give you a good idea of what your winrate is. It does seem like a long time. In fact for me to go back in my session log (live play) 1000 hours I go back to 2007. It's a ways away but still that is about 25-30K hands.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by career
really?? i mean do any winning players actually spend 1000 hours at 1/2 in the first place?

that's like a five hour session every day for 7 months....

like i said in one of my earlier posts, sometimes 1/2 is the only game in town. also, if you're spending most of your win, your roll doesn't grow much and 1/2 is simply where you're stuck playing for the time being.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by career
really?? i mean do any winning players actually spend 1000 hours at 1/2 in the first place?

that's like a five hour session every day for 7 months....
holy crap dude there's guys at the 1/2 game where I play live that have been there for 5 years
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ubiquitous
holy crap dude there's guys at the 1/2 game where I play live that have been there for 5 years
yeah but surely they're donators?

maybe my local lowest-limit game is just especially bad, but after only 50-60 hours play i'm looking to take shots at a level up
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 02:31 PM
[QUOTE=gmcaruso;17757922]having read this thread i feel more prepared than ever for the advent of b&m poker in my city (pittsburgh). the games are coming this year sometime--some say as soon as july--others say it won't be until the fall.

I can relate to a lot of what you're saying in your replies to this post- I'm interested in traveling back to PA (I'm in LA now) to see how the games are in the Lehigh Valley- Sands Casino, Bethlehem- mid summer/early fall.

Like you, I work full-time and have been supplementing my income with some 1/2 action on the weekends. Though I think the games in LA are typically a little tougher than Vegas or AC, we surely have our share of soft spots at every table, especially on the weekends. Not as many tourists- way more regs, but still beatable.

I've played as high as $25/$50 LHE back in the day, but since the NL boom several years ago (add in a less than stellar economy), I've found 1/2 (even with the ****ty rake) is my only option right now.

Here's what I've logged since mid-January of this year, all 1/2 NLHE, Hustler Casino in the City of Gardena:
140 hours played
+$1506.00
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcaruso
having read this thread i feel more prepared than ever for the advent of b&m poker in my city (pittsburgh). the games are coming this year sometime--some say as soon as july--others say it won't be until the fall.

I can relate to a lot of what you're saying in your replies to this post- I'm interested in traveling back to PA (I'm in LA now) to see how the games are in the Lehigh Valley- Sands Casino, Bethlehem- mid summer/early fall.

Like you, I work full-time and have been supplementing my income with some 1/2 action on the weekends. Though I think the games in LA are typically a little tougher than Vegas or AC, we surely have our share of soft spots at every table, especially on the weekends. Not as many tourists- way more regs, but still beatable.

I've played as high as $25/$50 LHE back in the day, but since the NL boom several years ago (add in a less than stellar economy), I've found 1/2 (even with the ****ty rake) is my only option right now.

Here's what I've logged since mid-January of this year, all 1/2 NLHE, Hustler Casino in the City of Gardena:
140 hours played
+$1506.00
Hustler is not a bad spot to play cash games, but really the tournaments are where it's at. I would be going there if it was a bit closer to me. I think you will find some easier games in Pittsburgh, especially if it's a new game there. You will have a lot of fresh meat so to speak. GL there and give us a TR once you settle in
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-27-2010 , 11:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by career
yeah but surely they're donators?

maybe my local lowest-limit game is just especially bad, but after only 50-60 hours play i'm looking to take shots at a level up
I've played mostly 1-2 for about 10 years. I play recreationally, but take it seriously, if that makes sense. I've played probably about 100 hours at 2-5 over the years, and despite the small sample size, I'm pretty sure that I'll make about the same per hour in 2-5, only with higher variance and more money at risk. So I've never seen a reason to "move up a level", when the money is pretty easy with low variance at 1-2, and the games are a lot of fun.

I put the quotes becuase online players always refer to stakes as "levels", when really it's always the same game. I find it amusing when people ask how they should vary their games at .50/1.00 vs. .25/.50 Really, you should play the same versus each type of opponent, just at .50/1.00 you're likely to encounter more tough opponents than at .25/.50

I should probably start a separate thread, becuase this is making me think of all the annoying things that people who learn to play online say and do.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-28-2010 , 05:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allejo
I've played mostly 1-2 for about 10 years. I play recreationally, but take it seriously, if that makes sense. I've played probably about 100 hours at 2-5 over the years, and despite the small sample size, I'm pretty sure that I'll make about the same per hour in 2-5, only with higher variance and more money at risk. So I've never seen a reason to "move up a level", when the money is pretty easy with low variance at 1-2, and the games are a lot of fun.

I put the quotes becuase online players always refer to stakes as "levels", when really it's always the same game. I find it amusing when people ask how they should vary their games at .50/1.00 vs. .25/.50 Really, you should play the same versus each type of opponent, just at .50/1.00 you're likely to encounter more tough opponents than at .25/.50

I should probably start a separate thread, becuase this is making me think of all the annoying things that people who learn to play online say and do.
dude don't get pissy just because i thought that people who hang around a level for too long are donators. if you play recreationally that's kl, but i don't and want to move up as quickly as possible hence the miscommunication.

fwiw you're right in saying i learnt online but i'm now an exclusively live player. and i'll always refer to them as levels because i'm clearly an annoying, online douche...
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-28-2010 , 06:07 AM
1000 hours/25k hands is clearly not enough hands to determine your true winrate.

Nevertheless if you run at 15bb/100, it's almost impossible to break even for more than 10K hands.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-28-2010 , 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allejo
I've played mostly 1-2 for about 10 years. I play recreationally, but take it seriously, if that makes sense. I've played probably about 100 hours at 2-5 over the years, and despite the small sample size, I'm pretty sure that I'll make about the same per hour in 2-5, only with higher variance and more money at risk. So I've never seen a reason to "move up a level", when the money is pretty easy with low variance at 1-2, and the games are a lot of fun.

I put the quotes becuase online players always refer to stakes as "levels", when really it's always the same game. I find it amusing when people ask how they should vary their games at .50/1.00 vs. .25/.50 Really, you should play the same versus each type of opponent, just at .50/1.00 you're likely to encounter more tough opponents than at .25/.50

I should probably start a separate thread, becuase this is making me think of all the annoying things that people who learn to play online say and do.
The OP is asking about the better players. If you can't make more @ 2-5 after playing for 10 years @ 1-2 .....then you are not one of the better players that the OP is asking about.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-28-2010 , 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katman
The OP is asking about the better players. If you can't make more @ 2-5 after playing for 10 years @ 1-2 .....then you are not one of the better players that the OP is asking about.
That's probably true. My point is that I make about $20/hr playing 1-2 (over 10 yrs and at least 1200-1400 hrs), which I think is pretty good, but I'll be the first one to admit that I make it mostly by exploiting the really bad players. I'm convinced that I would make about the same amount in 2-5 based on limited experience, which I still think would be pretty good. But the variance and effort required would be much higher to make the same amount, so why move up? That's all, not trying to be mean. I was responding to the question about winning players staying at 1-2 for 1,000 hours, not the OP.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-29-2010 , 12:40 AM
On the other hand, Allejo, is grinding out a true win rate in a game lots of lazy fishbags just claim is unbeatable so they can keep playing like fin-monkeys. you ain't gettin' rich off ten bucks an hour, but as long as u keep grindin you sure as hell ain't goin broke, neither.
god bless you Allejo. you give me faith, my friend; i should be so lucky to be putting up a post like yours a decade from now..(though i do play pretty damn well on my A game so maybe i'll try to make more like 25-30/hr over the next decade--even if that takes moving up from my beloved 1/2).

on a side note, how about i'd love to get my hands on the suit who kicked A.J. Benza off high stakes. if those players had any balls, they'd have all said we're not playing a hand until A.J. is back in the box with Gabe. What a disgrace.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-29-2010 , 05:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcaruso
On the other hand, Allejo, is grinding out a true win rate in a game lots of lazy fishbags just claim is unbeatable so they can keep playing like fin-monkeys. you ain't gettin' rich off ten bucks an hour, but as long as u keep grindin you sure as hell ain't goin broke, neither.
god bless you Allejo. you give me faith, my friend; i should be so lucky to be putting up a post like yours a decade from now..(though i do play pretty damn well on my A game so maybe i'll try to make more like 25-30/hr over the next decade--even if that takes moving up from my beloved 1/2).

on a side note, how about i'd love to get my hands on the suit who kicked A.J. Benza off high stakes. if those players had any balls, they'd have all said we're not playing a hand until A.J. is back in the box with Gabe. What a disgrace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allejo
That's probably true. My point is that I make about $20/hr playing 1-2 (over 10 yrs and at least 1200-1400 hrs), which I think is pretty good, but I'll be the first one to admit that I make it mostly by exploiting the really bad players. I'm convinced that I would make about the same amount in 2-5 based on limited experience, which I still think would be pretty good. But the variance and effort required would be much higher to make the same amount, so why move up? That's all, not trying to be mean. I was responding to the question about winning players staying at 1-2 for 1,000 hours, not the OP.
Both of these posts are levels, right?

I mean, maybe Allejo meant that he plays 1200-1400 hours per year which makes more sense, because 1300 hours divided by 10 years divided by 52 weeks is only 2.5 hours per week, which is not consistent enough to determine a win rate. If he meant per year, then 25 hours per week is getting closer to a consistent player, but still isn't a leatherass grinder.

These are levels.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-29-2010 , 06:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaminmissouri
Both of these posts are levels, right?

I mean, maybe Allejo meant that he plays 1200-1400 hours per year which makes more sense, because 1300 hours divided by 10 years divided by 52 weeks is only 2.5 hours per week, which is not consistent enough to determine a win rate. If he meant per year, then 25 hours per week is getting closer to a consistent player, but still isn't a leatherass grinder.

These are levels.
Your not getting leveled here. If Allejo has kept good records over this 1200-1400 time period; he has played approximately 30K to 42K in live poker hands during this span. The fact that it only averages out to 2.5 hrs per week is irrelevant. 30K+ hands imo is big enough of a sample to determine your winrate.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-29-2010 , 06:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by *******
Your not getting leveled here. If Allejo has kept good records over this 1200-1400 time period; he has played approximately 30K to 42K in live poker hands during this span. The fact that it only averages out to 2.5 hrs per week is irrelevant. 30K+ hands imo is big enough of a sample to determine your winrate.
Well, I see your point, but I disagree. IMO, you need to be able to quantify a certain number of hands within a reasonable amount of consistent time.

If I play one hour of poker per week, every week, for 50 years, I have played 2600 hours of poker. Based on your math, which is pretty close, I've played 65,000 hands of poker. If I never lose, and always win, even a negligible amount, I still wouldn't qualify that as a consistent winrate. Even though my sample size seems large, because it is so small relative to the total time involved, it is inconsistent.

imo
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-30-2010 , 12:04 PM
Data point:

Just started playing Mohegan Sun 1-2 NL again.

65 hours
$20 per hour

Not a lot of huge swings in there, lost my records from when I played in the past, but this seems just a tad higher than I used to play. This is rather short term, but it certainly is not just a lucky tourist type of win rate. I feel I could plug a few leaks and get a few new tricks to bump it up to $25.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-30-2010 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adaminmissouri
Well, I see your point, but I disagree. IMO, you need to be able to quantify a certain number of hands within a reasonable amount of consistent time.

If I play one hour of poker per week, every week, for 50 years, I have played 2600 hours of poker. Based on your math, which is pretty close, I've played 65,000 hands of poker. If I never lose, and always win, even a negligible amount, I still wouldn't qualify that as a consistent winrate. Even though my sample size seems large, because it is so small relative to the total time involved, it is inconsistent.

imo
Totally disagree. I think as long as he is playing roughly the same way and the opponents have not changed drastically, then 1300 hours is 1300 hours. And that is plenty to have a pretty good idea of win-rate. Why does it matter how long it took him to get to 1300 hours? I am clearly missing something...
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-30-2010 , 01:30 PM
I am not saying I agree or disagree, but the poker landscape may have changed over the last 50 years.

Just like a guy batting 500 in the 1920's would might not even get out of the minors today, a good player 50 years ago might be a donk today because playing field has gotten tougher.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-30-2010 , 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunther
Totally disagree. I think as long as he is playing roughly the same way and the opponents have not changed drastically, then 1300 hours is 1300 hours. And that is plenty to have a pretty good idea of win-rate. Why does it matter how long it took him to get to 1300 hours? I am clearly missing something...
Well, maybe I'm struggling with a language barrier, I am from Missouri after all, haha.

If someone plays one hour of poker on January 1st every year, they are technically consistent. But, wouldn't consider their consistency enough to gather accurate results from. If we expand that a bit to 1300 hours over a lifetime, I just can't personally consider that enough time to gather results from.
But, if we are discussing results as they are important to us, it doesn't matter what I think. However, in a setting where we want a standardized way to discuss results, I feel like we need to add another quantifier of time, such as $ per hour, per hour per standard. For example, I earn $1 per hour, per 1000 hours per year.

Just my two cents, this has actually turned out to be a solid thread.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
03-30-2010 , 05:51 PM
Hi

I generally play deep stacked live at the equivalent stakes of 10 20 USD- 50/100 USD. I play in London and Macau mainly.

I am running very good at 50/100, but over a year of playing live an average of about 6 times a month in London, and 3 separate trips to Macau of lengths 5 days, 2 weeks, and 10 days. I have some records but not detailed ones, without going through them all as I dont have time, I can estimate that I have put in between 800 and 1000 hours (avg session length is 8-10 hours).

I am up 280 000 USD but play extremely deep stacked often and have been in some really good games. OVerall win rate should be circa $310/ hour.
How much per hr playing live? Quote
04-14-2010 , 12:03 AM
Smallish sample size, but I've won consistently in different locations and formats (live casino and home games) so far in 2010. Been playing NLHE for 10 years but didn't play much before this year because of school and work. Thanks to a phone app, here are the detailed stats for 2010:

Net gains: $4,042
$/h: $28
$/session: $155
Hours: 142
Sessions w/l: 19/26

In AC I ran $21/h through 110 or so hrs, in home games since then I've been running closer to $40+/h. Lots of loose-even some deepstacked loose-1/3nl games around where I live, so game selection has slowed the AC trips.

Game rates, though not divided by location:

.50nl- $12/h
.50/1.00nl- $14/h
1/2nl- $27/h
1/3nl- $36/h

Regarding sustainability, i agree with the general idea of a $20/hr ceiling for 1/2 casino games with high rakes and tighter play, but believe 25/h and above is possible in weaker home games. Game selection has a big impact on win rates, so it would be useful to frame win rates within certain game types, though competition can vary nightly within the same locations.
How much per hr playing live? Quote

      
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