Having a hole card debate with a buddy, we can't seem to find our answer.

Let's say you're holding AK on KK5KA (quads with an ace kicker).. which A are you playing? The one in your hand or the one on the board?

Main reason we got into discussing this is bad beats of AAAKK or better beaten with "all hole cards must play rules".. say on this board you have AA v AK, do you guys think it would qualify?

Doubt it. Cards on the board take preference over cards in hand.

Ignoring your example, if there was an Ace-high straight on the board and you had Jack-10 in hand, your cards wouldn't play over someone who had a 5-6 unsuited or Ace-King.

How do you figure? hand strength is irrespective of how many board cards you play, so a player with AK could very well be said to be playing three cards from the board and 2 cards from his hand and still chop with a guy playing all five board cards. Either way it is broadway, so all hands would be equal.

Every room I've played in has had rules that say that the card in the hand counts as being used when it is duplicated on the board for determining high hands, bad beats, etc. I guess a room could make a rule that says otherwise, but there is no poker related rule per se, since jackpots are just a made up thing by the house.

You and your opponent have the same hand because you're playing the same 5 cards. Why should you get to play the cards in your hand while your opponent uses the cards on the board? You don't need to play the AK in your hand so there's no reason to think that they take preference over the cards on the board.

I asked a related question to yours, here. There wasn't much of a consensus but I liked forbin99's answer the best:

Bolding is my own.

To get back to your example, the King plays, the Ace does not.

The real answer is decided by the casino - whatever the house rules are.

I've only played in a few BBJ places but in all cases AK on a KKKAx board would qualify, as would AK on a AAKKx board.

you play the two cards in your hand in holdem. if the board makes a higher hand you get to play that. that board is not a higher hand. as a player you get to decide which hand you want to play. in a tournament it can be different.

You want find a universal rule here since in NLH any KKKKA is the same as any other KKKKA. There is no weight given to suit rankings or whether a card is in the hole or on the board. It will all be dependent on the rules set up by the house.

Some rooms do require a pocket pair for any full house/quad promo, but your hand would qualify everywhere else I know of. It's very possible, however, that there is some room somewhere that disallows hands if a card is duplicated.

Your first question is roughly like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

The answer to your second question is that bad beat jackpots have rules which vary and the rules should address this possibility but neither way is inherently right or inherently wrong.

What do you mean by "why should a player get to use the cards in his hand? " every player can always use the two cards in his hand if they contribute to the five best card hand. What rule are you thinking exists that says "players will use the five board cards, and only, if necessary to make a better hand, use the cards in their hand"?

Let's say player 1 has AK and player 2 has 55, they are all in preflop and turn their cards up. The flop comes QJT. Player 1 with AK is ahead as he has already made a straight regardless of the two cards to come. Now the turn and river come AK, putting a straight on the board for player 2 with 55. Of course player 2 is playing the board, but player 1 is not. The turn and river did not improve his hand. He had a straight on the flop. He has the same straight on the river. The cards used to make that straight didn't change.

So I see no basis at all in the rules for your concept of a player "getting" to play his hole cards and another player not getting to. That concept doesn't exist in Holdem.

true river wine, but as the sandman said the house makes the rules and you are stuck with them.
someday they may standardize them. i tried to promote that years ago but was told if the rules were the same and written down then the floormen would look bad at not knowing them or making wrong decisions. unbelievable.

I recently played at a small cardroom in Washington where both hole cards had to play to qualify for their high hand bonus, and you got screwed if the board duplicated them

I was holding KT and the flop was KKT. Turn K, river 2. My quads didn't count for the high hand because they said my kicker didn't play. Adding insult to injury, the high hand that won for the period was Queens full - if I hadn't improved my hand on the turn, I would have still won the pot, as well as an extra $200.

House rules ... I've seen where they 'don't care' for HH promos but they do care for BBJ. So it all comes down to how the house has worded their promo.

Obv for a BBJ you need a showdown, but I've seen many a player 30x shove a Flop in an effort to preserve a sucky hole card. GL

In the rooms where I've dealt and played...

For high hand promos, AK in the hand on a board of KK5KA is valid for quad kings with an ace kicker, even when the promo requires that both hole cards must play.

For bbj promos, where quads getting beat is a condition, the house rules will usually be very clear about the stipulation that the player must have a pocket pair to qualify. In that event, even when the board is KK5K5 and the player holds AK, it still won't qualify, even though the ace kicker clearly beats the board.

The rule for the BBJ is "your" kicker must play, meaning the one in your hand. If there's one on the board, then you aren't using your own kicker, but it's going to depend on the house rule. They usually post a long legal description in fine print somewhere in the poker room about the bbj.

Lots of 'bad beat' examples .. that I love to see at the Limit tables ...

Board .. AAQQA
Player 1 ... QQ
Player 2 ... AJ ... No HH or BBJ in most rooms .. GL

PS .. I already know this didn't add to this thread one bit!

I have yet so see a poker room which didn't have the qualifying rules for the jackpot written down and posted publicly.

They much easier to address than poker rules .... its a very cut and dry thing (while enforcement of rules about collussion can get murky ...... the rules of qualification for the jackpot shouldn;t be hard to address).

Also the general house rules generally mediate pot-sized disputes, if the **** really hits the fan people will be $100-$1,000 mad, not $10,000-$100,000 mad.

i meant all the rules in each house not just the bbj rules although it seemed i said that. which i guess i did.

House rules are what they are, but this one is pretty horrible.

I'm not sure which rule you think is horrible .... but I donlt think either rule could be called horrible. These are rules governing the bad beat jackpot not the poker game...

so they are tailored to the rooms goals with the bbj. If you say that the hand wins the jackpot in this case then the bbj is a little bit easier to hit. If you say it doesn't win the jackpot in this case its a little bit harder.

Just like some rooms require a pocket pair for Quads while some do not. Some rooms require Aces full beat others may require Quads 8's beat. They are simply different games.

My local CR rule is ... both hole cards MUST play... which is interpreted as both hole cards DO play.......

Which, I know, isn't universal...... but, I think it should be........

This doesn't clarify anything.

sorry... meant to say..... "For High Hand Jackpots"....

I still don't know what you meant. The whole issue is the interpretationof which hands from your hold cards play, if they are duplicated by the board. Differentiating between "do play" and "must play" doesn"t mean anything to me.