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Old 11-19-2017, 05:58 AM   #26
TheBoom
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Originally Posted by BackDoorFlush View Post
No way an online player would do something like that. Please don't include this.

And go log 50-100 hours of live play. It will help a lot.
Yes, I wasn't going to, it was just funny to me that people actually do that. Definitely am going to log a lot of hours eventually.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:02 AM   #27
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Don't worry so much about being realistic. Only 1% of your audience will care--and there will be no pleasing this 1%, no matter what you do.

But my $.02: maybe your hero and another player can be brought a rack of chips. Other player smoothly unracks; hero tries to remove one stack and fumbles chips everywhere. It's the spit-take of poker!
But there's so much true to life, good stuff that happens that I really don't feel like I have to make anything up.

As for the chips exploding, I think I'd rather it have something that shows he doesn't know the etiquette -- maybe like someone had mentioned earlier where he hands the chip rack back to the dealer.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:04 AM   #28
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

Do a lot of consulting on this one. Not because you can't produce something compelling, but because the poker boom traverses so many great bits of details that whatever you produce would be incomplete to your core audience.

...poker is wildly fascinating and deserves to inspire great art and storytelling. How can your ambition have legs to stand on if you aren't even sure what happens when a live game starts?

Last edited by Tuma; 11-19-2017 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:15 AM   #29
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Just please promise me your character isn't go to win the 2004 Main Event. Would be unrealistic, and to me personally, very annoying.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
I absolutely will not be! This pilot is not meant for network TV, it's meant for a paid cable network, particularly HBO. I grew up watching Oz, The Sopranos, Rome, The Wire, Boardwalk Empire, Game of Thrones. I want it to have that raw quality that those shows have, where it feels real.

For instance, an arc for a character on my show might be a guy who got super lucky at the beginning of the boom when the play was super awful and made a fortune without having much skill, moved to Vegas with other successful players who actually have talent, crashes and burns, gets desperate and does dumb stuff, and ends up killing himself or going to jail.

Plugging it again, I did post the first 13 pages (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Li2...ju2Bfg_En/view) and would appreciate it if anyone could take a look and give me honest feedback (even if it's brutal). I think you'll see from the first 13 it has the above mentioned quality, plus there is a twist (that gets revealed at the end of the pilot) that I want to see if you guys can guess.

Last edited by TheBoom; 11-19-2017 at 06:41 AM.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:18 AM   #30
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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1) Spill chips while removing from rack
2) Invest in a ponzi scheme

You're welcome.
With regards to the ponzi scheme: the character is street smart, so I'd prefer if #2 had something to do with what's going on in the game that he might not be aware of due to inexperience. Unless the ponzi scheme somehow relates to poker?
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:21 AM   #31
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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A most common "Angle" for a newbie to be tripped up by, is he bets the river and his Heads Up opponent turns over his cards, and says "OK". The kid flips over his cards with the winning hand, and the villain says "I fold"...

Which, as long as the card protectors aren't revolvers or some old rocks, will end up in a shouting match.

FTR the "buddy" in your scene can't intervene in any meaningful way during the hand because of the One Player To A Hand (OPTAH) rule.
That's perfect for #2, exactly the type of thing I was looking for. Now, could the buddy give him a kick under the table to try and stop him when he goes to turn over the cards?
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:23 AM   #32
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Originally Posted by TheBoom View Post
With regards to the ponzi scheme: the character is street smart, so I'd prefer if #2 had something to do with what's going on in the game that he might not be aware of due to inexperience. Unless the ponzi scheme somehow relates to poker?
I was speaking from my own experience with that one. Several years ago a low-limit player told me about his auto shop and gave a cheap estimate to fix the cigarette holes in my leased car. We exchanged numbers, then shortly later, another player let me know that he was not to be trusted.

I think the most likely "business venture" would be a home game or some kind of staking opportunity, but generally the more wild the better... nothing is too outlandish for this setting. I don't think casual viewers would find an angle-shoot very gripping.

The most common one is announcing "two pair" with a pair on the board.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:28 AM   #33
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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These may be too subtle for a TV show, but here are the ways I know a player has not played live very often (or ever)
1. The way they stack their chips (dirty stacks, big chips hidden or on the bottom, uneven stack size)
2. Fumbling with chips when placing bets
3. General nervousness
4. Not understanding basic procedural rules (oversize chip rule, string betting, not acting out of turn, minimum raise size)
5. Not understanding what constitutes a bet in that riim (betting line, forward motion, or dropped chips)
6. Breaches of etiquette like Slowrolling, excessive tanking or hollywooding
7. Talking about the cards you folded while action is still pending
8. Very stiff and uncomfortable body language
9. Not being able to find the table number

As far as your second scenerio, there are only a few things that a third player can call out without violating OPTAH
1. Clarifying whether action has occurred. For example, a player who knows the house rules acts as if they are placing a large bet, but falls short of committing the action (in a room with a betting line, they push chips forward, but not crossing the line, or in a room where chips dropped are the bet, they place a stack over the felt, but keep them off the felt). Another player could possibly ask 'Is that a bet?'
2. Clarifying the bet amount-for example, if the hero is wearing headphones, and villain declares '$10' and then tosses out $60 in chips, the third party might get away with making sure that the hero knows the size of the bet
3. If it is a tournament, he could offer him a bad chop value (though an online pro would probably not be fooled by this)
4. Here is a very easy one-The villain could try getting the hero drunk.
Thanks for all the suggestions.

For #2, your 1 or 2 suggestions is along the lines of what I was looking for.

My #1 has to be quick and obvious and just as he sits at the table, so I'm leaning towards a couple of small things quickly, like giving the rack back to the dealer or not realizing how to buy chips.

Last edited by TheBoom; 11-19-2017 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 11-19-2017, 06:34 AM   #34
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Do a lot of consulting on this one. Not because you can't produce something compelling, but because the poker boom traverses so many great bits of details that whatever you produce would be incomplete to your core audience.

...poker is wildly fascinating and deserves to inspire great art and storytelling. How can your ambition have legs to stand on if you aren't even sure what happens when a live game starts?
Hands being played at the poker table are going to be such a tiny part of the series though. You can only do that stuff so many times without boring the hell out of the audience, and when you do do it, it has to be done quickly and in such a way the audience knows what's going on. Right now I can get away with generally describing things in the script and the specifics can get filled in later if by some miracle the pilot gets shot. But for little anecdotes like this, I need some help.

The most important part of the series is the characters and what's going on with them, and I understand the poker boom culture both from being in it and also from extensively researching it. So I have the important stuff down, just need a little help on certain things.
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Old 11-19-2017, 12:02 PM   #35
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Hands being played at the poker table are going to be such a tiny part of the series though. You can only do that stuff so many times without boring the hell out of the audience, and when you do do it, it has to be done quickly and in such a way the audience knows what's going on. Right now I can get away with generally describing things in the script and the specifics can get filled in later if by some miracle the pilot gets shot. But for little anecdotes like this, I need some help.
I believe this is a mistake.

The most compelling part of a poker story is the poker itself. And it doesn't have to be just the poker. The banter at the table can be awesome as well. Similarly with tension and players butting heads.

I worked on an episode of Blue Bloods called "Drawing Dead" as a technical consultant. At first the director told me to set up a hand where there would be about 5 seconds of action at a poker table and then cue the entry of the police for the arrest scene. After about 4 or 5 takes, the Director realized that they were missing the essence of the scene, which was the poker action. So they had me roll back the hand to an earlier round of action where you get to see most of the players at the table involved.

For drama, tension, and appeal to a poker playing audience there has to be poker. Otherwise its just another TV show. Just make sure that the play is realistic, as you are doing now.

One of my favorite TV shows of all time was Sports Night written by Aaron Sorkin. It was a show about a half hour sports TV show. An actual sporting event was shown and then the story revolved around it. The sporting event tied the show together. It wasn't the best part of the show. But it was the catalyst for the show.

Best of luck with this.
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Old 11-19-2017, 03:06 PM   #36
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

Another thing to remember is that back then, the entire WSOP was in the Amazon room. Satellites, everything. My first year was ~2006. I was sitting there playing a $125 STT (maybe they were $120 or $115 back then) and quite starstruck seeing Doyle, Ferguson, all the big names walk by. Since everything was in one room, it was a lot more condensed than it is now. A $1500 event I played in had Barry Greenstein at the table behind me, Hellmuth, two tables over.

I actually witnessed the following in the first bracelet event I played. A player got knocked out and a new player was moved from another table. He walked up with empty hands and the dealer asked where his chips were. "Right here", and reached into his jeans pocket for a handful of chips. The dealer called for a floor, who explained to the poor guy that his chips have to be visible at all times. Boom, disqualified, out $1500, in the early hours.

This was a rule I was unaware of and glad I didn't have to learn the hard way. These days they make sure to tell everyone but back then I think they assumed that people that put up $1500 for a tournament knew what they were doing.
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Old 11-19-2017, 05:23 PM   #37
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

When your hero first walks up to the table, have the first words out of his mouth be "dealer, square up the table". Then have him place his chips right next to a guy who looks like he just got out of prison, who mumbles something as he pushes hero's chips over. Hero says "**** you!" Prison guy says "what did you say?" Hero sneers "you heard me!" Prison guy then reaches up and grabs hero by the throat.

The third player says to prison guy, "take it easy on the newbie, Killer. He thinks he's in an online game, typing **** in a chat box. He doesn't have a ****ing clue how **** works in real life. Besides, you don't want to go back inside so soon, do you?" Prison guy thinks for a minute and slowly lets go of hero's throat. "OK, but just as a favor to you, Slick. But if he opens his mouth to me one more time, he's mine."

Hero gasps for breath, steadies himself, and says to Slick "Jesus ****ing Christ, what got into your friend here? I can't believe he got so upset". Then hero turns to the dealer and says "are you going to square the table or not? What kind of place is this, anyway? You didn't even ask me for my players club card!"

The End
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:18 PM   #38
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

Here's a good poker plot for you!

Hammy, rakeback grinder from Denmark, is visited by a mysterious ghost resembling his recently fleted father, the Poker Champion of Denmark. The ghost tells Hammy that his father was felted by Claude, the Poker Champion’s brother, who then took all the chips and married Hammy’s mother, Gertie. The ghost encourages Hamlet to avenge his father’s bust-out by angle-shooting Claude.

The task before Hammy weighs heavily upon him. Hammy’s uncertainty about how to play A-K off and small pairs is what makes the character so believable – he has arguably one of poker’s most psychologically complex game trees.


He is slow to take action, but when he does it is rash and spewey. We can see this in the famous “curtain scene” when Hammy slowrolls Antonius.
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:31 PM   #39
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

I didn't read all the suggestions, but handling chips is how a new players is always first recognized. Have the chips spill out the rack as he turns it on end to stack them. Also, when he bets or calls, show a real player cut out the bet quickly, then show him attempt to count two chips at a time in his hand attempting to match the bet.

Also, the most common mistake of a new player is saying "I call and raise $50". Verbal is binding, so the player is forced to call.

In regard to someone who suggested showing a player tabling his hand and saying "OK" as an angle, please don't do anything that would educate non poker players about how to angle, or anything that would forward the public misconception that poker is shady.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:17 PM   #40
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Originally Posted by BoDiddleyMacau View Post
...

In regard to someone who suggested showing a player tabling his hand and saying "OK" as an angle, please don't do anything that would educate non poker players about how to angle, or anything that would forward the public misconception that poker is shady.
It would entirely depend on how its done. If his "buddy" rips the angler a new one for his shady tactics and the other players concur, then viewers get educated that not only are some players angleshooters but that the poker community at large doesn't like it or tolerate it.

Also, it educates people that they should be aware and wary when they play in a casino. I think this is actually a good thing.
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Old 11-19-2017, 08:44 PM   #41
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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It would entirely depend on how its done. If his "buddy" rips the angler a new one for his shady tactics and the other players concur, then viewers get educated that not only are some players angleshooters but that the poker community at large doesn't like it or tolerate it.

Also, it educates people that they should be aware and wary when they play in a casino. I think this is actually a good thing.
Sure, I could see that. I think that a scene like this would primarily go over the head of non-poker players however. Imagine what it would take to explain what happened?
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Old 11-19-2017, 10:54 PM   #42
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Originally Posted by Riverine View Post
When your hero first walks up to the table, have the first words out of his mouth be "dealer, square up the table". Then have him place his chips right next to a guy who looks like he just got out of prison, who mumbles something as he pushes hero's chips over. Hero says "**** you!" Prison guy says "what did you say?" Hero sneers "you heard me!" Prison guy then reaches up and grabs hero by the throat.

The third player says to prison guy, "take it easy on the newbie, Killer. He thinks he's in an online game, typing **** in a chat box. He doesn't have a ****ing clue how **** works in real life. Besides, you don't want to go back inside so soon, do you?" Prison guy thinks for a minute and slowly lets go of hero's throat. "OK, but just as a favor to you, Slick. But if he opens his mouth to me one more time, he's mine."

Hero gasps for breath, steadies himself, and says to Slick "Jesus ****ing Christ, what got into your friend here? I can't believe he got so upset". Then hero turns to the dealer and says "are you going to square the table or not? What kind of place is this, anyway? You didn't even ask me for my players club card!"

The End
i don't believe you have only been on 2p2 since July
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Old 11-20-2017, 09:42 AM   #43
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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i don't believe you have only been on 2p2 since July
Uhh...think of me as a young body with an old soul.
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Old 11-20-2017, 11:41 AM   #44
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

I did this the first time I played live. First time I was the big blind it wasn't raised when it got to me. Dealer said, "Your option". I said, "What does that mean".
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Old 11-20-2017, 12:49 PM   #45
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

OP, it may be instructive for you to do a search on you tube for 'angle shooting' or 'poker angles' etc. there are some good ones. From hiding big chips (this happened recently) to the old 'Raise, no I mean call' angle. These are the types of things that sometimes a third player can say something about (though it is walking a thin line). For example, if a player goes all in, and is clearly hiding big chips behind his stack of smaller chips, a player with a cleaner angle might be able to say something without getting penalized.
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Old 11-20-2017, 03:19 PM   #46
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

I would think someone new to live poker would be frustrated with the pace of the game or mistakes by a dealer. You could probably play him off as a cocky ******* who isn't used to the social aspects of the live game. He could be turned into a villain really quick and have to take lessons from a seasoned live pro in how to handle himself amongst people in the real world.
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Old 11-20-2017, 06:08 PM   #47
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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I would think someone new to live poker would be frustrated with the pace of the game or mistakes by a dealer. You could probably play him off as a cocky ******* who isn't used to the social aspects of the live game. He could be turned into a villain really quick and have to take lessons from a seasoned live pro in how to handle himself amongst people in the real world.
Wow, cocky, socially inept poker internet pro wannabe's. You will have to spend a lot of hours in a casino to fit anyone who meets that description. Like, maybe a whole hour.
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:59 PM   #48
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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I believe this is a mistake.

The most compelling part of a poker story is the poker itself. And it doesn't have to be just the poker. The banter at the table can be awesome as well. Similarly with tension and players butting heads.

I worked on an episode of Blue Bloods called "Drawing Dead" as a technical consultant. At first the director told me to set up a hand where there would be about 5 seconds of action at a poker table and then cue the entry of the police for the arrest scene. After about 4 or 5 takes, the Director realized that they were missing the essence of the scene, which was the poker action. So they had me roll back the hand to an earlier round of action where you get to see most of the players at the table involved.

For drama, tension, and appeal to a poker playing audience there has to be poker. Otherwise its just another TV show. Just make sure that the play is realistic, as you are doing now.

One of my favorite TV shows of all time was Sports Night written by Aaron Sorkin. It was a show about a half hour sports TV show. An actual sporting event was shown and then the story revolved around it. The sporting event tied the show together. It wasn't the best part of the show. But it was the catalyst for the show.

Best of luck with this.
I disagree that the most compelling part is the poker itself. It's the characters that inhabit the crazy world of Vegas, who for whatever reason choose this very unusual way to make a living.

As far as hands go, we might be talking about two different things here. There will be hands, but it's not going to be like Poker After Dark or High Stakes Poker where we're following the strategy of what's going on culminating with some big dramatic moment when someone calls or folds (this gets tiring after a while, plus the average viewer isn't really invested in the strategy aspect). The hands played on the show will be used to highlight things about the characters or the relationships between them. The two hands in the first 13 pages do just that and other hands that appear later in the pilot have the same intention.

Thanks for the well wishes.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:04 PM   #49
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Originally Posted by BoDiddleyMacau View Post
I didn't read all the suggestions, but handling chips is how a new players is always first recognized. Have the chips spill out the rack as he turns it on end to stack them. Also, when he bets or calls, show a real player cut out the bet quickly, then show him attempt to count two chips at a time in his hand attempting to match the bet.

Also, the most common mistake of a new player is saying "I call and raise $50". Verbal is binding, so the player is forced to call.

In regard to someone who suggested showing a player tabling his hand and saying "OK" as an angle, please don't do anything that would educate non poker players about how to angle, or anything that would forward the public misconception that poker is shady.
OK multiple people keep saying to have the chips spill out the rack, and maybe I was misunderstanding. I was taking it that they meant the player was nervous, but apparently these racks are easy to mishandle if the person doesn't have experience? That's something that would be perfect then actually.

As far as the last paragraph, it would also educate people on how to avoid getting angled. But sorry, I'm going to include anything I see fit as long as it's interesting. Will not be worrying about who is being educated about what. Hope you understand why I can't start thinking that way as a writer, unless maybe I'm writing about terrorism or some major thing that could lead to people being hurt or killed.
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Old 11-20-2017, 08:05 PM   #50
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Re: Help on scene in poker pilot?

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Another thing to remember is that back then, the entire WSOP was in the Amazon room. Satellites, everything. My first year was ~2006. I was sitting there playing a $125 STT (maybe they were $120 or $115 back then) and quite starstruck seeing Doyle, Ferguson, all the big names walk by. Since everything was in one room, it was a lot more condensed than it is now. A $1500 event I played in had Barry Greenstein at the table behind me, Hellmuth, two tables over.

I actually witnessed the following in the first bracelet event I played. A player got knocked out and a new player was moved from another table. He walked up with empty hands and the dealer asked where his chips were. "Right here", and reached into his jeans pocket for a handful of chips. The dealer called for a floor, who explained to the poor guy that his chips have to be visible at all times. Boom, disqualified, out $1500, in the early hours.

This was a rule I was unaware of and glad I didn't have to learn the hard way. These days they make sure to tell everyone but back then I think they assumed that people that put up $1500 for a tournament knew what they were doing.
Thanks that's an interesting story I could use for later. Must not have had many chips remaining if could fit them all in his pocket?
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