Hey all,

So I'm writing a TV pilot that centers around the poker boom. I used to play online and watch all the shows and stuff, but I never really got that much experience playing live. I do plan to go play live at a nearby casino eventually to do research, but right now I'm just writing a rough draft of the scene before I risk any money.

I was wondering if you could help me out with a certain scenario I'm trying to write: one of my main characters -- who's an 18 year old online poker star that just arrived in Vegas -- sits down at poker table in a casino for the first time (he uses a fake ID, it's 2003).

1) What is something a brand new player might do while sitting down at the table or just after they sat down at the table that would let everyone know that they never played live before?

2) In his first hand, one of the scummy veterans at the table takes advantage of his inexperience and tricks him into doing something that an experienced player would never do. It has to be something where another player at the table can step in and warn him not to do it (this player is a character that will eventually become his friend). I remember seeing something a long time ago about being tricked into showing cards at showdown in some scenario? Can't remember exactly.

Appreciate any advice that can be given!

Maybe you could just write Chris Moneymaker and ask him about his experience in 2003. TBH, it was a better story than the one you apparently are trying to write.

C'mon, you can't possibly have any idea what story I'm trying to tell just from that!

The pilot coincides with Moneymaker winning the WSOP, and follows a couple of characters making their way in Vegas during the ensuing poker boom. You can think of it as The Wire except in Vegas, where it follows all types of characters: online players, live players, pro sports bettors, showgirls, dealers, whoever.

Stick to a topic you know something about.

First 13 pages BTW: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Li...pbJGUju2Bfg_En

And yes I know the result of Moneymaker winning the WSOP might have already been known before it aired on TV, that's something I'll have to remedy later.

If anyone wants to take a look, I'd appreciate it. There are a couple of poker hands in there.

But ultimately, to stay on topic, would still love your opinions on the above stuff I asked about.

I know plenty about it. I bought the HUDs, Sit N Go tools, Sharkscope. I read the books. I watched the shows, I followed the WSOP and was familiar with all the players.

It was a dream of mine to be an online pro, but I was only marginal winner at best. I actually deposited $500 the Thursday before Black Friday with the intention to get serious about grinding and hopefully quit my job, I'm not joking (the money was deposited into my account on credit before it was withdrawn from the bank so I never lost it).

I just barely ever played live in the casino (only a couple of times).

2003 is a little before my time so I'm not sure how the setup was different then, but he might not know how to get a seat. Maybe he'll try to sit down, be told he has to go talk to so and so. He'd be told to go to table 6 and not know how to find that table, how to buy chips, etc.

After winning a hand newbies often forget they have to give the cards back to the dealer. He wouldn't know how to view his cards properly if he's only played dorm room games with paper cards. He might have to look down at the numbers on the chips and do the math in his head before betting. He'd string raise and put in the wrong chips.

Please do get a consultant to help you get the details of the room right. Poker in the media can be painful to watch when the creators aren't players.

Thanks for the helpful info!

Don't worry, no consultant needed as I will be doing the research myself. Just right now trying to bang this out without having to go spend x amount in a poker room. Plus, even despite my research I think you guys have better stories of newbs getting angleshot by scumbags.

Green to live poker players:

* try to leave their chips in the rack (in a room that doesn't allow you to play from a rack.

* when asked to unrack, they do so then try to hand the dealer the empty rack

* look puzzled when asked if they have a player's card

* Have trouble following the preflop action when there's been a straddle

* don't know to tip the dealers

* often aren't skilled at protecting their cards from view

* don't understand the limits of their allotted space at the table (just last night a guy thought he could shove his backpack on the floor in front of him in the #2 seat -- I was in the #1 seat and suddenly found a backpack in the only space where I could put my legs/feet).

Green to poker players often do all of the above, plus:

* they look at their hole cards, then if they have a monster, they try to buy more chips during the hand

* they try to buy more chips to call a bet that's bigger than their existing stack

* they try to take money off the table

* they try to argue that a kicker counts in the case of a chop where 2 or more players have the exact same straight or full house i.e. 1 player has A J, the other has A 6, and the board runs out: A A 7 7 10.

* make comments or have reactions during the hand, but after they have folded, that clearly indicate what their hole cards were

* They ask "is it my turn" 972 times

You might want to avoid the mistakes this series made, which lasted 9 episodes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_(TV_series)

Personally, I think a far more interesting story would be of an internet player in 2004. Give him a family he is living with, a girlfriend, and online friends. How does he handle the isolation, the pressure from his family and girl friend. Have him bink a big tournament and how does he handle the sudden money. Most successful writers work with things they know well. If you have to ask anonymous people about how it was, you're probably not going to get the "realism" you want from a "The Wire" type approach.

Make sure to give me credit for the concept.

The more you can personally learn from actually playing live a few times a week for a few months at lower stakes $1-$2 up to $2-$5 , the better and more realistic your pilot will be. You will of course get insight from playing, but the other folks at the table playing, dealers, Floors, even cocktail girls and security guys would be a gold mine of realistic situations and storylines. Most good stories are researched by writers going close to the source of their subject. You should really do this. It would be very easy also!

1. An obvious one is when a player first sits down, takes money out and asks the dealer or a neighbor, "How can I get chips?"

2. An easy one of these can be where the poker table has a betting line, and the casino doesn't have a forward-motion-is-binding rule. Newbie bets river, veteran puts the call chips forward but not over the line and newbie shows his cards.

Thanks for the info.

"they look at their hole cards, then if they have a monster, they try to buy more chips during the hand" - LOL

One of the main characters is an online player circa 2004. I posted the first 13 pages above and it already incorporates some of the stuff you're mentioning. I'm asking anonymous people about very specific things at the poker table, as I've already mentioned I was a part of the boom and also have a done a ton of research. Are you serious about wanting credit for that concept? lol.

I agree with you and as stated, will be playing live eventually. I've definitely researched all other aspects of the pilot and like I've said, I was part of the boom so I understand the culture. I've read a ton of books: Ship it Holla Ballas, Doyle's bio, Stu Ungar's bio, Mike Matusow's bio, The Professor, The Banker, and The Suicide King, and others. I've watched all the documentaries, From Busto to Robusto, Nosebleed, Bet Raise Fold, The PokerStars documentaries, etc. It's just stuff involving table games I don't have much experience playing like Craps, or poker (which I've played a ton online just not much live).

So don't worry guys, this is a culture I'm familiar with and I am doing research. But no writer knows everything about everything (this is more directed at some of the other concerns from other people than Bene).

Great thanks. Seems like that first one is a common one.

A couple of things I did on my first visit:

1. Posted 1bb OOP in order to play immediately and then folded when it checked round to me.

2. Started gulping uncontrollably when I raised pre with AA and another player was table talking while deciding whether or not to 3 bet.

No way an online player would do something like that. Please don't include this.

And go log 50-100 hours of live play. It will help a lot.

Don't worry so much about being realistic. Only 1% of your audience will care--and there will be no pleasing this 1%, no matter what you do.

But my $.02: maybe your hero and another player can be brought a rack of chips. Other player smoothly unracks; hero tries to remove one stack and fumbles chips everywhere. It's the spit-take of poker!

^^^

A man who has to deal with poker players all day long.

Just please promise me your character isn't go to win the 2004 Main Event. Would be unrealistic, and to me personally, very annoying.

Thanks, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

1) Spill chips while removing from rack
2) Invest in a ponzi scheme

You're welcome.

A most common "Angle" for a newbie to be tripped up by, is he bets the river and his Heads Up opponent turns over his cards, and says "OK". The kid flips over his cards with the winning hand, and the villain says "I fold"...

Which, as long as the card protectors aren't revolvers or some old rocks, will end up in a shouting match.

FTR the "buddy" in your scene can't intervene in any meaningful way during the hand because of the One Player To A Hand (OPTAH) rule.

These may be too subtle for a TV show, but here are the ways I know a player has not played live very often (or ever)
1. The way they stack their chips (dirty stacks, big chips hidden or on the bottom, uneven stack size)
2. Fumbling with chips when placing bets
3. General nervousness
4. Not understanding basic procedural rules (oversize chip rule, string betting, not acting out of turn, minimum raise size)
5. Not understanding what constitutes a bet in that riim (betting line, forward motion, or dropped chips)
6. Breaches of etiquette like Slowrolling, excessive tanking or hollywooding
7. Talking about the cards you folded while action is still pending
8. Very stiff and uncomfortable body language
9. Not being able to find the table number

As far as your second scenerio, there are only a few things that a third player can call out without violating OPTAH
1. Clarifying whether action has occurred. For example, a player who knows the house rules acts as if they are placing a large bet, but falls short of committing the action (in a room with a betting line, they push chips forward, but not crossing the line, or in a room where chips dropped are the bet, they place a stack over the felt, but keep them off the felt). Another player could possibly ask 'Is that a bet?'
2. Clarifying the bet amount-for example, if the hero is wearing headphones, and villain declares '$10' and then tosses out $60 in chips, the third party might get away with making sure that the hero knows the size of the bet
3. If it is a tournament, he could offer him a bad chop value (though an online pro would probably not be fooled by this)
4. Here is a very easy one-The villain could try getting the hero drunk.

Thank you. One is something along the lines of what I'm looking for, though getting the audience to understand about the BB and such would be a challenge, though I think they'd get the jist of it.