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Old 01-03-2018, 07:05 AM   #1
Grizzler
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Help me understand the poker *******!

I love playing in casinos especially tournaments, but one thing that always irks me is there's always that one Phil Hellmuthesque guy who acts like a complete prick, which is incredibly annoying when you just want to get on with the tournament and he just starts mouthing off about you because you didn't make the play that he would have made. It just seems unbelievably illogical to me to act like this on the table so I'm wondering if anyone who understands how their minds work can answer three simple questions:

1. Do they not understand that they are playing AGAINST people?

Seriously, how the hell can you go into a tournament and complain that your opponent didn't do what you wanted? It's your effing opponent!!! He's playing against you! The worst is when they say "I wouldn't have done that" - well play by yourself then! The basic concept of playing against people means that they will do things that you wouldn't do. If you think someone is a bad player or makes bad plays, then use that information to beat them - simple! Show it don't say it, anyone can talk.

2. Have they not noticed that the cards are face down?

I ask this question because most *******s are what I call the 'Value Bet Elitist'. They seem to know all of the value bets and think that's the be all and end all of poker. Do they ever stop to think, if poker is just a numbers game and is just about percentages and possibilities, wouldn't the cards be face up? Do they not understand that in poker, you don't play the cards you play the man? The fact they cry 'bingo' when someone doesn't follow their value bet doesn't make any sense to me, if everyone followed the correct value bets the only difference would be the cards and it would become a game of chance and more like 'bingo'. Value betting is good to start with when you don't know your opponents game, but then it's about reading their play, sizing up what kind of player they are, not only working out what cards they have but what would intimidate them into folding in certain situations and what would encourage them to call or raise in others. You know, poker!

3. What makes them the authority on what is a good play and a bad play?

Now I can understand the frustration if someone is constantly going all-in pre flop. I abhor that as much as the next person. But the ******* usually cries 'bingo' every time he doesn't understand a play and doesn't see the reasoning behind that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's random! Ever thought that there things in the game you're not seeing? Obviously not as the self-proclaimed "expert" seems to only know about value betting. And no I'm not going to explain to you why I made the play I did because I don't want to give away any part of my strategy because I'M PLAYING AGAINST YOU!!!


Sorry to make my first post such an angry one, it's just something that makes me so mad because I paid to do the tournament and I just want to get on with it and I find it very disrespectful for someone to go into a tournament that people have paid for and act like a dick. If you know someone who is like this on the table or if you admittedly act like this sometimes can you please answer my questions, as I cannot see how it can possibly make sense to conduct yourself in this manner.

Thanks

Last edited by dinesh; 01-03-2018 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 01-03-2018, 10:56 AM   #2
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

1. You're basically asking why some people are ******* bullies. It's always because they're insecure.

2. You need to stand up for yourself. Have you noticed that guys like that act like that only towards certain people but don't towards other people? Bullies pick on those they perceive to be weak and timid.

3. Berating other players' play is against the rules of many rooms. Unfortunately, if you call the floor they will tell both of you to chill out because that's the most efficient way for them to handle. But it often works anyway, the bully stops because now you've increased the cost of bullying and he will have to deal with the floor if he wants to continue.

So don't be a doormat. Stand up for yourself verbally. Tell him you're sick of his behavior. Call him out. Or call the floor. Just don't "ignore". Ignoring is weak and timid and encourages more abuse.

So at the end of the day this is really a social question. You need to learn how to stand up for yourself in any environment be it poker room or elsewhere.
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:05 AM   #3
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
1. You're basically asking why some people are ******* bullies. It's always because they're insecure.

2. You need to stand up for yourself. Have you noticed that guys like that act like that only towards certain people but don't towards other people? Bullies pick on those they perceive to be weak and timid.

3. Berating other players' play is against the rules of many rooms. Unfortunately, if you call the floor they will tell both of you to chill out because that's the most efficient way for them to handle. But it often works anyway, the bully stops because now you've increased the cost of bullying and he will have to deal with the floor if he wants to continue.

So don't be a doormat. Stand up for yourself verbally. Tell him you're sick of his behavior. Call him out. Or call the floor. Just don't "ignore". Ignoring is weak and timid and encourages more abuse.

So at the end of the day this is really a social question. You need to learn how to stand up for yourself in any environment be it poker room or elsewhere.
I don't agree that the OP was being called out on because he seemed like a week individual. When some people lose hands to players they think made a bad play, they get upset no matter who that person is.

I also disagree that the OP should "call him out" and stand up for himself. That will only escalate things even more. Just say "Yeah, I don't play much, I'm just here to gamble" them move on. There's also nothing wrong with ignoring him which would be even better. If he keeps it up, ask the dealer to call the floor.
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:50 AM   #4
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

Why would you want to understand them? Some people are just *******s with massive egos, you're going to find them everywhere around you.

The bigger question is why you let it bother you. It shouldn't bother you and in fact he is giving away a ton of information about his own play so you should welcome it. If it does bother you, he is giving you so much material to blast him so go ahead and make him look like the idiot.
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:51 AM   #5
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

Some people like to see how far they can push you (the table) before you snap.

Lots of poker players think they are better than they really are.

Some players are only open to how they think the game should be played ... and want to show you how superior they are at the game. (insecure, so they are looking for 'agreement' from the table)

Some players get 'excited' if a player makes a 'mistake' ... similar to some Blackjack players when a player takes an ill-advised hit. So they take it as a teaching moment.

Some players take the game more serious than others.

Don't let 'any' player take you off your game with their actions. It very well could be their way of distracting the table and possible picking up on some tells and/or setting themselves up to be the table captain.

Obviously you hope that a Dealer would set the tone for the table behavior but I would generally wait until break to get a Floor involved unless one is just standing near by. (unlikely) GL
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:53 AM   #6
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Kelvis View Post
Why would you want to understand them? Some people are just *******s with massive egos, you're going to find them everywhere around you.

The bigger question is why you let it bother you. It shouldn't bother you and in fact he is giving away a ton of information about his own play so you should welcome it. If it does bother you, he is giving you so much material to blast him so go ahead and make him look like the idiot.
I don't know if it bothers OP as much as it bothers him that it makes the game unpleasant and ruins the fun for casual rec players that comprise much of the dead money in the field.
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:54 AM   #7
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

Some ppl just need to feel like they are superior. It really is that simple. The ones you speak of are the ones that not only need to feel superior, but they want everyone around them to think they are superior. Unfortunately poker attracts a lot of these ppl. The sooner you can just accept that and learn to deal with them the better.

The best response to them is no response. If you want to say something, my preferred response if I won the pot is "I'm stacking the chips, so I must've done something right" or in other scenarios "I'll play my way and you can play yours".
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:56 AM   #8
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
So don't be a doormat. Stand up for yourself verbally. Tell him you're sick of his behavior. Call him out. Or call the floor. Just don't "ignore". Ignoring is weak and timid and encourages more abuse.

So at the end of the day this is really a social question. You need to learn how to stand up for yourself in any environment be it poker room or elsewhere.
Now I see why you started the other thread.
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Old 01-03-2018, 11:59 AM   #9
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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I don't know if it bothers OP as much as it bothers him that it makes the game unpleasant and ruins the fun for casual rec players that comprise much of the dead money in the field.
No offense to OP but I think he falls under the category of casual rec player. The reason is any regular/pro is going to have enough experience with these folks to deal with them and aren't as bothered by them, other than they are annoyed by the fact this guy is costing them money. None of that was mentioned.

Also OP seems furry furry mad and salty.
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Old 01-03-2018, 12:50 PM   #10
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Now I see why you started the other thread.
Is there a record for locked threads? GL
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Old 01-03-2018, 01:53 PM   #11
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

Hey OP. Live poker can be very annoying at times. Certain players can be very annoying at times. Seems to bother you more than normal. Sometimes it can be dealt with by dealers, floors, or simply other players. Sometimes it just is part of the table dynamic that you have to adapt to, if you can. I am not one of those guys/gals that would upset you, BUT if I was there , and saw how tilted you might be by obnoxious behavior ,I might try to use that against you descretely. Just sayin.
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Old 01-03-2018, 03:06 PM   #12
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Grizzler View Post
I cannot see how it can possibly make sense to conduct yourself in this manner.
It doesn't make sense but one of the greatest misconceptions in both poker and economics is that people act rationally.

First, you should not let criticism get to you.

Second, use what they say as a window into their soul. People get angry about the things they care about. If he's ranting about you missing value bets, it means his strategy is centered on value betting. If he's ranting about you calling his bluff, it means his strategy is centered on bluffing.

Finally, be sure to analyze their criticism and see if anything is true. Maybe you do miss value bets or do call too much. Or maybe his criticism is off and he is value betting incorrectly and bluffing too much. Either way, away from thetable mathematically analyze the play and adjust your game if needed. Never reveal you're doing so at the table.
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Old 01-03-2018, 05:05 PM   #13
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

A solid first post, OP. Since the answer to your question encompasses so many variables I've adopted this attitude:

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Old 01-03-2018, 05:58 PM   #14
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

There is no need to undertand them, only yourself. Ignore these people. If you feel that you absolutely have to react, then laugh at them.

As for the 'doormat' concept, you are only a doormat if you let them make you feel different than your normal state.
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Old 01-03-2018, 06:06 PM   #15
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Grizzler View Post
Sorry to make my first post such an angry one, it's just something that makes me so mad because I paid to do the tournament and I just want to get on with it and I find it very disrespectful for someone to go into a tournament that people have paid for and act like a dick. If you know someone who is like this on the table or if you admittedly act like this sometimes can you please answer my questions, as I cannot see how it can possibly make sense to conduct yourself in this manner.
Some people act like dicks when playing poker because they are dicks. To thine own self be true.
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Old 01-05-2018, 12:38 PM   #16
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

In general I would suggest not trying to evaluate an emotional thing in a logical way.

Usually when somebody berates me its because they lost a hand that they think they should've won. And they are angry.

More importantly they also may feel threatened. If I continue to play in a manner that they can't predict, then it is a threat to their future earnings.

The logical response to all of this which most regular players have probably heard at the table is: "don't you want players to make mistakes against you?". The loss of a hand due to a mistake on my part is painful in the short run but should be profitable in the long run.

Or there is "Don't tap the glass". Which is to say, that pointing out a mistake is akin to telling somebody they are a fish and play poorly. Why would anyone want to goad somebody into trying to play better? There is no logical answer. Its about anger.

When I am in OP's situation, I look at it as a learning opportunity. I am about to get educated. I can either get defensive or I can learn something. I choose to learn.

The best teachers I have had at the poker table are the ones who are angriest at me and spell out my mistakes. I find that a little instigation at the right moment can elevate the level of the discussion (as well as the scorn and contempt).

As a "strategy" when somebody gets upset at a third party I often defend the play of the third party (no doubt erroneously). This has the amazing effect of making a friend, relaying the info that I am a complete moron, and getting a detailed explanation of why that style of play won't work.

Best of luck to you OP.

For me I live by this slogan "take what you like and leave the rest!"
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Old 01-05-2018, 01:39 PM   #17
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Grizzler View Post
I love playing in casinos especially tournaments, but one thing that always irks me is there's always that one Phil Hellmuthesque guy who acts like a complete prick
Yeah there's pretty much always 'that guy' around when you play poker. Since that's part of the game, whether or not you should have to put up with someone being a prick, you will.

The sooner you accept that and learn strategies to deal with it, the happier you will be. If it's really spoiling your enjoyment of the game, it's OK to not play instead.

BTW the 'fight back' strategy advocated earlier ITT is usually the worst choice. It's better to be more business like and treat the money as a priority rather than 'winning' an altercation with some random choad.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:19 PM   #18
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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BTW the 'fight back' strategy advocated earlier ITT is usually the worst choice. It's better to be more business like and treat the money as a priority rather than 'winning' an altercation with some random choad.
I disagree. If you don't put it a stop to it the abuse will usually escalate to the point where it affects your psychology and your game and you will not be able to play your best. And it might even escalate to the point that OP reached where you don't want to play at all. In both cases it will handicap your ability to make money. If you think you're a robot and can just take abuse indefinitely and keep playing your A-game, you're not.
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Old 01-05-2018, 09:23 PM   #19
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

I'm sorry but anyone that is truly affected by some moronic donk trying to lecture has huge flaws in their mental game. I actually enjoy having these morons from time to time because they just tell you everything about how they play. If I want to have fun I'll even play along and **** with them without them realizing it.

If you let this bother you then you're actually a snowflake.
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Old 01-06-2018, 06:51 AM   #20
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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I disagree. If you don't put it a stop to it
You can disagree all you like but you can't stop dicks playing poker so your goal is literally impossible. The wise man learns how to deal with these people and going toe-to-toe with them is seldom the most effective way to resolve matters. Unless of course your ego is more important than your bankroll, in which case go for your life.

Last edited by WereBeer; 01-06-2018 at 06:56 AM.
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Old 01-06-2018, 10:54 AM   #21
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

You can't put a stop to it actually. Not without a major confrontation that is quite disruptive. "These guys" are going to be around at nearly every table, and sometimes there are more than one. Dealers and Floors can eliminate the worst levels of this behavior but will not be interested in taking any action most of the time. So you have to deal with it yourself as best you can. There are many ways to deflect this kind of stuff that actually work better than serious confrontation , since in the end you will likely BOTH be handed a rack by a floor that finds you BOTH disruptive to the flow of the game.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:41 PM   #22
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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You can disagree all you like but you can't stop dicks playing poker so your goal is literally impossible.
That's not my goal though (although it would be nice). My goal is to stop abuse before it starts effecting my mental state. There are different ways to skin a cat but what I found works best for me is confronting them directly.

Quote:
The wise man learns how to deal with these people and going toe-to-toe with them is seldom the most effective way to resolve matters.
It's not going head to toe. It's not like this:

D: "Haha, nice call, dumb ass!"
M: "**** you, mother****er!" or "At least it was better than your raise, idiot!"

It's more like this.

D: "Haha, nice call, dumb ass!"
M: "Excuse me? Listen, you're being rude and I really don't appreciate it. There's no need to be rude. Let's just play the game and have fun."
D: "I'm not being rude. I just think you're a dumb ass".
M: "Floor." the dealer backs me up when the floor comes over because I've engineered the encounter to be as black-and-white as possible.

That's it. It's over at that point in 99% of cases. Even if he wants to **** with someone else after the floor's involvement (usually not) it won't be me. I don't need to listen to him anymore, I don't need to ignore him, I don't need to think of clever responses back - it's done, I can relax and focus on the game.

Quote:
Unless of course your ego is more important than your bankroll, in which case go for your life.
To some degree it is about ego and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think allowing people to disrespect you is psychologically healthy - and I think that's actually proven with scientific studies. And it is very much about bankroll for me. If the abuse is not stopped sooner or later it starts to effect my mental state and my game quality goes down which negatively effects my BR. Does that make me a "snowflake"? I don't think so, I think it's pretty normal for humans to be affected by this.
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:49 PM   #23
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Bene Gesserit View Post
You can't put a stop to it actually. Not without a major confrontation that is quite disruptive. "These guys" are going to be around at nearly every table, and sometimes there are more than one. Dealers and Floors can eliminate the worst levels of this behavior but will not be interested in taking any action most of the time. So you have to deal with it yourself as best you can. There are many ways to deflect this kind of stuff that actually work better than serious confrontation , since in the end you will likely BOTH be handed a rack by a floor that finds you BOTH disruptive to the flow of the game.
Actually, you can if you do it right. Refer to my post above on how I do it.

That said, I am interested in learning about deflecting. Could you tell me how to do it?
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Old 01-06-2018, 12:51 PM   #24
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

"Fighting back" makes other players at the table uncomfortable and kills the mood. I hate when people feel the need to do that instead of being able to just ignore somebody talking some BS. Those guys often are as annoying as the bullies.
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Old 01-06-2018, 01:05 PM   #25
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Re: Help me understand the poker *******!

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Originally Posted by Olaff View Post
That's not my goal though (although it would be nice). My goal is to stop abuse before it starts effecting my mental state. There are different ways to skin a cat but what I found works best for me is confronting them directly.



It's not going head to toe. It's not like this:

D: "Haha, nice call, dumb ass!"
M: "**** you, mother****er!" or "At least it was better than your raise, idiot!"

It's more like this.

D: "Haha, nice call, dumb ass!"
M: "Excuse me? Listen, you're being rude and I really don't appreciate it. There's no need to be rude. Let's just play the game and have fun."
D: "I'm not being rude. I just think you're a dumb ass".
M: "Floor." the dealer backs me up when the floor comes over because I've engineered the encounter to be as black-and-white as possible.

That's it. It's over at that point in 99% of cases. Even if he wants to **** with someone else after the floor's involvement (usually not) it won't be me. I don't need to listen to him anymore, I don't need to ignore him, I don't need to think of clever responses back - it's done, I can relax and focus on the game.



To some degree it is about ego and there is nothing wrong with that. I don't think allowing people to disrespect you is psychologically healthy - and I think that's actually proven with scientific studies. And it is very much about bankroll for me. If the abuse is not stopped sooner or later it starts to effect my mental state and my game quality goes down which negatively effects my BR. Does that make me a "snowflake"? I don't think so, I think it's pretty normal for humans to be affected by this.
Yeah that seems to be working.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...fault-1700275/
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