Hey there, the problem I am facing in a particular casino I frequent is certain couples (either romantic or just friends,) are systematically colluding and everyone understands and is okay with it, and I don't know what to do to protect myself from it.

I have been going to this particular casino for about 3 years now and have always enjoyed myself. I enjoy the people playing there and have many poker friends that I enjoy talking to and being around at the poker room. I understand all the friend dynamics, and there are 2 particular groups that are using their relationships to cheat.

The first are the whales. These are the group of friends that will all move to the same table with each other to gamble and have fun. I get it, it's their entertainment away from work. Of course myself and other regs will move to that table to hunt them. They know that and we all have a good time joking about it. Now every once in awhile when one of the regs ships all in, there will sometimes be someone who says "Let's crack the nits aces!" or something along those lines. 3-4 people will end up calling with any 2, and they will all check it down to the river with the reg being all in.

Obviously a big no no, however, everyone that works in the poker room loves these people, they tip big, have been friends with some of the pit bosses for years, and frequently party outside of casino life with each other. I am also worried that if I say anything that I will quickly be stigmatized and lose ALOT of action that these people bring me.

The second group up of people are reg couples. They are pretty much doing the same thing as the whales, but without being obvious about it. If they get into a 3 way with the third party being all in, they will check it down to each other without any need for signalling.

The difficulty is proving that anyone is colluding (outside of them explicitly saying it,) being stigmatized if I do say anything, and knowing that going to management will have word spread quickly about me through the staff and eventually back to the players.

So my question is, what should I do? Is there anything I can do? Do I just suck up the extra variance and not lose face? For a little context, playing on their tables is extremely (for me) profitable. It is a 1/3 game where you can cash out multiple times within a month for 2K+ a day. These people are shipping 300 blind, bomb potting 20-50, giving action with garbage hands etc. It's a hard situation I find myself in.

There are so many threads about soft-playing. It's not going away.

Exhorting others to play their hands a certain way should be stopped, but a jovial, devil-may-care game tends to encourage such things.

I think you may have to put on a smile and play through it.

Whatever you do, you should keep one thing in mind: the “whales” don’t have to be there. They could play at one of their homes or find a different hobby.

If I was you, I wouldn’t do anything to encourage that. But that’s obviously up to you.

FWIW, every time I am annoyed by something at the table, I try to figure out if I am the only one. If everyone one else is OK with it, there’s a good chance the problem is me not them.

WTF is OP complaining about?

I would pay to play in said games!

If I’m all in pre with aces, you can call as many of your friends as you want to come to the casino, put up the money, and take two off the top of the deck. I’ll wait.

They're also lining up 3-4 deep to call with any 2 when you're all in pre w AA.

Yeah, you need to put a stop to that.

Yup.

Clearly the adjustment is just to never bluff these types and take manies.

Figure out how to play the whales.

The couples may be a problem.

There were several couples where I played regularly who played differently when they were in a hand together. Some of them were good players who did better when playing at the same table as their spouses. It got bad enough that two of the couples were not allowed to play at the same table unless there was just one table going.

But unless the consensus among the regulars is that there is a problem, then you have to figure out if it is worth it (playing). You can also go to the Floor with a complaint and see if other players have also complained about the couple. It would be effective to make the point that you have stopped playing at tables where the couple are playing together. If more than one player goes to the Floor then eventually they will see it as detrimental to their revenue.

In Arruba I found a couple's cheating to be so egregious that I stopped playing in the 20/40 LHE game altogether. And that was why I went there!

At FW there were two couples who played together that were clearly colluding, but were so awful that I was advised by other regs to let it go (which I did).

Yes, but you'd then like the one who flops top pair to bet the flop and dump all the bottom pair/backdoor flush/backdoor straight hands going against you.

But in reality the implicit "let's check it down" **** has always and will always exist. Good luck getting rid of it without harming the game. It has too small of an effect in the grand scheme of things to get worked up over.

Are there combos where Aces aren't +EV in multiway pots? I'm asking because I actually don't know and haven't really thought about it.

Seems like a humble-brag on first read, but maybe you really aren't sure and we'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

I trust after reading the comments, that you realize how +EV these "problems" are and that there is no reason to "fix" them.

I think maybe you concerned about variance? From a +EV standpoint, going all-in pre-flop with AA into 9 calling random hands is going to win more money than shipping AA into just a single random caller. The more players, the "less often" your Aces will hold up, but you'll cover that with the bigger pots when you do win.

Can understand your annoyance with it but echoing what the others ITT are saying, sounds like the game... especially the "whale" game... is an absolute print factory for the 1/3 level. Should probably find a way internally to accept it for what it is and reap the profits. Like everyone else, I'd love to ride the variance train of multiple people calling my all-in bets when I'm holding AA.

If it's bugging you to the point you have to say something, you're pretty much stuck having to say something to the floor and dealing with the consequences you've laid out (since it sounds like the bigger players are buddy-buddy with the staff). If that does't work, your other option would be complaining to whatever gaming commission oversees your area. Again, not what I'd do, but those are your options if it's really bugging you to that point.

I guess technically you could concoct a set of hands where AA is slightly less than even money

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=11541700
pokenum -h as ad - ac ah - ts 9s - 2h 3h - kc ks - qh qd
Holdem Hi: 658008 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ad 11685 1.78 471872 71.71 174451 26.51 0.150
Ac Ah 11924 1.81 471633 71.68 174451 26.51 0.150
Ts 9s 134325 20.41 522145 79.35 1538 0.23 0.205
3h 2h 100184 15.23 556286 84.54 1538 0.23 0.153
Ks Kc 123772 18.81 532698 80.96 1538 0.23 0.188
Qd Qh 101667 15.45 554803 84.32 1538 0.23 0.155

I suppose if you get 7 callers and they all have different suited connectors A2-AK (A2,34,56,78,9T,QJ,AK) with all suits covered then you would nearly have 0 equity in the hand. Other than that, I can't think of any.

The chances of you winning that hand are greater than the chances of it happening. Still +EV.

I don't mind being less that even money (50-50) when I'm getting 7-10X my bet.

I don't think you would have 0 equity in that situation. You still have top pair and better equity than any other single player.

Yes indeed.


OP does not appear to have returned. Looking for an update when they do.

Yeah nothing worse than shipping with aces and multiple whales colluding to call you with ATC. I can see why you'd want to solve that problem, I hate it when people conspire to give my actions +150bb EV.

So I'm not sure where all of you are getting the "you hate callers with AA??" from. Let me clarify, they say that when I or another grinder raises a hand every once in awhile. It doesn't mean I have aces. A side note though, I have indeed had aces when this situation has occurred. In a BTN straddled pot I was SB and made it 45 and got 7 callers because of this. Surprise, I didn't win the pot because 62o crushed the flop lol. They just relish in the thought of taking us out with their group mentality.

To those of you who posted relevant answers, thank you. I have talked it over with some other people who grind at the same casino and with their consensus and some of yours, I feel that even though it's incredibly frustrating to feel cheated out of some hands, there's nothing to really be done about it. So thank you for your time in reading and giving me your 2 cents.

Uh-huh, well let's review your opening post:

So lets note our grinder is getting it all in and the spiteful whales are calling in order to crack his aces with ATC.

Your problem is not a case of whales just calling an open as you retroactively try to describe it, it's the whales colluding to call with napkins against a perceived nitty reg shove which in the whales' minds has to be premiums.

The issue you are describing is being forced to flip for stacks with an edge, which is a gambler's dream.

Sounds like the blacked out woman at table scenario. In these situations bring multiple bullets. Variance will be in your favor. I had a woman once at my table who was blacked out and going AIPF every hand. You just have to call when your hand is good.

wat? We still have 15.494% equity in that situation, the highest of any of the players. If we have 100bb effective stacks, our EV in that situation is 123.95bb, for a profit of +23.95bb. That's a huge edge.

Sure it's not as good as one caller with an underpair whose suits we cover, but it is still a very high EV situation. It's also just about the "worst" case scenario. If we got 7 callers with random hands, even though we are well under 50%, our EV is massively better than the best case HU scenario.

Makes it a lot worse when someone else has AA.

It's a profoundly unlikely scenario--so unlikely that it's barely worth discussing--but you can construct the scenario if you feel like it.

Interesting that OP who "hunts whales" doesn't want players calling his premium hands with rags. And not uncommon for the hunted to feel like others are ganging up on him.

Yeah, that's not what the OP said. He said that he's not thrilled that said whales all collude by checking it down post flop.

Suck less at reading comprehension.

Any hand a normal player would be betting in such a situation (barring really weird stack sizes) is crushing one pair, so who the **** cares?