My brother plays in a nickel-dime-quarter home game with the usual Anaconda, Ladders, Criss-cross, follow the Queen games. He's never played in a casino. He asked me if it was legal to take money out of your stack and put it in your pocket.

Obviously you can't. But then he asked me if you could simply rack up and move to another table while going south with some of your profit from the first table.

I told him that (as far as I knew) most casinos will not let you buy into another table with a smaller stack unless you have sat out for some period of time.

And he asked how the casino enforced their policies. And I was stumped. So I told him I'd post the question here and let the regular players give an answer (I have a total of maybe 50/60 hours of 2-4 LHE play over the past five years so I have some clue how it works but know nothing about the more detailed operations of a poker room)

So ................

What are the typical rules and changing tables and buying in with a smaller amount than you took off the original table and what does the casino do to enforce these rules?

Thanks to all....... Rich

so rules here vary. the best rule imo is that you need to keep your stack if you change tables at the same limit but if u change limits then you are a new player. once I played in a casino where I needed to keep my stack even though I was going from 2000/5000 COP (Colombian Pesos) to 1000/2000 COP! More recently I moved from a 5/5 BRL game to another 5/5 BRL game and was forced to buy in for exactly the max, 1000, because I had more than that in my stack when I switched. Some casinos when you switch tables it is like you are a new player and you are constrained to table min/max.


As for how that is enforced, mostly it is on the honour system, but the floor can also keep an eye sometimes if they are vigilant. This is probably one of the easier rules to get away with breaking, either by going north or south, when switching tables.

Also whether you are choosing to switch tables, or coming from a broken game, can also be a factor.

Going south between tables is rarely caught but would more than likely result in an immediate request to leave for the day .. if not longer .. by the Floor. If you don't change stakes, then you normally need to maintain your stack or cash-out and go back on the list for a minimum period of time (1-2 hours) before you could come back at an accepted BI amount for a new Player.

I was involved with a scene where a Player went south between PLO tables (must-move to main). I was next to move and this Player had a much smaller stack than when he moved. I scanned the table and even asked the guy to my right if he'd been coolered since sitting down .. "Not that I've seen".

Well, when the next guy moved very shortly after I did I asked him if something was missing from the table .. He scanned the table and blasted out "Where the #$%^ is that 1K chip you got from me over there?" Of course the Floor came over and it was determined that the Player went south between tables and had received a warning earlier that weekend for the same offense .. Bam, instant 30 day ban.

On the flip side there was a casino (Toledo, OH) that 'required' Players to drop down to starting stack every table change. You can only imagine the surprise that non-Regs got when the table change list was longer than the waiting list!

As with pretty much all things in poker .. 'it depends' .. will apply and just make sure you ask before acting when you are playing in a new room. GL


PS .. How should it be enforced? Well, upon getting the green light for a table change a Brush or Floor should bring the Player a rack(s) and escort them to their new seat. Problem is that staff is either too busy (or chooses to be too busy). Another issue is that Players feel like they have to 'play to their Button' or something similar before moving, which would cause staff to wait for the move. I've seen rooms where you move now or lose your spot .. I like it.

What you need to do varies by room and are sometimes completely opposite. In some rooms, you must take your full stack, in some you must bring down/go up to the table min and max. Both camps will tell you why their way is better (prevent going south vs. penalizing players on the new table by "forcing" them to play against a big stack "they didn't earn here"). In some what the rule is depends whether you're moving voluntarily or because of a broken game.

In most I would say the above applies to same game only - if you switch games you have to conform to the min/max of the new game, since you are basically not table changing here, but quitting one game and joining another, but there is probably an exception out there (see PPG's post).

Enforcement also varies. In some a floor will walk you to your new seat and confirm you do follow the rules on stack, whatever they are. In some they will walk over and just tell the incoming dealer that a new player is transferring, possibly include the amount, and leave it up to the dealer to enforce. In most, probably, there is no enforcement at all - the player is given their new table number and left to their own devices as they move between tables. Perhaps a dealer will inquire if they try to sit with more than the max, perhaps not.

Getting caught as a20 described would largely be up to the players noticing in most cases (and probably only easy to do in must move games). I appreciate the 30 day escalating ban - I wish all rooms were as firm with violations like this, though I doubt most are.

FWIW I've never seen a floor spot a player going south. I would guess it's close to 50/50 between players and dealers when it's spotted, usually the dealers notice because the player is known for doing it and/or acted a bit weird. Also, really don't do it on a must move it gets spotted almost 100% of the time.

Most rooms near me technically have a 2 hour rule, but I've seen a bunch of people leave to play blackjack or slots for an hour and then come back and sit in the exact same seat with less. So just go get some food, or go for a walk or something (if changing games/limits isn't an option).

And some let you choose to bring over your full stack or go down to anywhere between min and max buy-in.

That's my preferred way of handling it. "Going South" refers to removing money from the game. To me, a different table is a different game. I understand forcing people to bring their full stack to discourage table hopping though.

I have only ever seen the dealer or floor require that the chips be reintroduced. Never seen someone be asked to leave for it. Tiny sample though.

+1. Also tiny sample though.

Technically not going South but still funny/weird:
End of day 1 of a $1000 WSOP event a couple years back when those were still the smallest regular bracelet events. Everyone is bagging & tagging except for one guy who stands up, takes his stack of 10-15 chips and puts it in his pants pocket. Everybody else is like "wtf are you doing?", dealer yells for a floor to come over. The guy looks super confused and says he didn't know he wasn't allowed to do that. Floor tells him that's usually an automatic disqualification. Based on the shocked reaction from people around, I wasn't the only one unaware of that rule. In the end the floor made him empty his pockets onto the table and he got away with a stern warning.

Let’s say I had $1000 stack playing 1/3. I cash out my chips, have a drink at a casino bar nearby that I drink quickly but don’t chug (say 15 minutes) and then come back and buyin to a new 1/3 game in the same casino for $300.

Is this considered going south and/or illegal in most casinos?

Assuming this casino rule is bring all on a table change, Yes and yes but only usually since local rules will vary. Most common sit out reset time is one hour but I have seen two or four. Heck once on a cruise ship using one electronic table the reset time was the gaming day.

Also all tables of the same game normally but any difference will change the game. Diff blinds of course but can be a rock, deep v. normal buyin, kill game, etc. One place had both with and wo btn straddles and those were different games.

In the Midwest it would be almost impossible to 'get away' with this even if you got past the Floors/Dealers and found a seat at the new table. The Regs would be all over you in no time.

As I mentioned earlier, the Hollywood Casino in Toledo would have required you to BI for $300 or less at the new table. I'm not sure if they still have that rule post-CV.

'Illegal' is a bit harsh, but it would be against most room's policy. Change stake, no problem.

The casino in Milwaukee (Poto, no poker return as of yet) had a bit of a hybrid rule in their room. If you table changed to an 'existing' table you had to keep your stack. But if you sat at a table that was less than 1 hour old, you then had to drop down to table stakes. They saw it as a way to protect the new table from the big stacks coming over and start to bully. So in a bit of a backdoor, a Player could request a table change and thus 'go south' within the rules of that room. GL

How do people feel about going north?

Would you ever call out a serial north goer?

—-

I personally don’t call people on this because there is a lack of proof, which is kind of a cop out. But seriously how would you prove someone went north/south to the floor? Would you make them check the cameras? At a private/home game there might not be any cameras. Do we really want to get into this confrontation? You basically have to catch villain in the act of it or it’s borderline impossible to prove.

The real question is how much are players supposed to police the game?

Should the dealer be the one to call this out?

As far as OPs concerns I’ve always thought the rule was:

Must move you have to bring entire stack
Table change you can only bring min- max buyin
Broken table you can bring your entire stack or the min-max buy in

Going north is allowed .. up to table stakes or 'match the stack' as provided by the game. Plenty of times there's been a table vote to allow a Player to BI for more than the table stakes to keep him in the game. This is all out in the open for the whole table to 'see'.

The main issue with 'northerners' is that they try to go north during the hand! This is not the old days where you had to match the bet or lose the hand. It's just a bit unfair that someone add chips when they know they have a huge hand.

Yes, you go to the Floor and have them pull the video. Why would you allow a Player to take chips off the table at their discretion? Win a big pot .. "Guys, I'm dropping back down to table stakes." Why would you want to keep this guy in the game?

If a Player wants to cash-n-dash that's up to them, but if they want to continue to play they must leave all the chips in their stack 'at risk' until they choose to clock out.

Players/Dealers/Floors/Rooms set the tone for the room and are OBLIGATED to police the games per the room rules and 'tone' as I'm calling it. I've seen extremely tight home games and I've seen the wild west home games as far as rule enforcement.

I'm a little passionate about this since we had/have a serial stack manipulator in our Reg group. I've had Floors pull video on him. I've told them to 'never' color him up. He's been banned multiple times from multiple locations. The sad part is that he's a well above average Player and seemingly really shouldn't need to manipulate his stack.

How would you feel about a Player who plays $300 in their stack when SB to MP, but then adds on for HJ-B? That's not how poker works .. this isn't a pit table game where you can change your bet every 'hand'.

It's very easy to prove .. "Hey dude, where's that 1k chip you just won?" "Hey dude, you just had 6 black chips, now you have 3 .. Where are they since they're not in anyone else's stack?"

We all each have our hot buttons and apparently this is one of mine, but if you're not leery or concerned about Players manipulating their stack I'm not sure what might be on your hot list. GL

PS .. I think the fact that 'this' Player is skilled is what makes people even more upset about this issue. Players want a chance to win back their chips .. and as long as that Player remains at the table those chips should as well.

When I say north I’m assuming it’s a capped game and you can’t go north. It’s not going north to match the stack.

In my younger days, I went north a few times, but it has been many years now since I have done that. I will call people for going north definitely. I mean the rule is in place to protect weaker players, I so I don't feel bad at all at invoking it on their behalf.

Those may be your local rules but it is very much local rule based especially for voluntary table change. Around here you can go South on table change but if you do you are capped at buy in max. For example you have $900 in play and buy in max is $300. You can take the full $900 to new table or drop to $300 but you can’t drop to $650. Nothing between $899 and $301.

What makes this really weird and complicated is we can also match big stack. So if someone at new table has $650 you could drop to. $300 and then immediately top off to $650. But you still could not play $725 at new table though $900 is still an option.

One of the first times I ever played poker in a casino. This was during the boom when the Tropicana had a poker room. I was a noob to poker and didn't know any of the etiquette. I flopped a set and doubled up against aces and left the game to pick someone up from the the airport. While I was walking out to the car, they called me and said they were getting a taxi. I returned to the game and tried to buy in for the minimum. The guy with aces flipped out, called the floor, and I had to buy in for the full amount.

But there was rarely more than 1-2 tables running in that room even then.

At Aria Las Vegas (speaking from experience) it all depends on how much you tip the floor on a regular basis ... had to learn that the hard way, not only for transfer between tables (some people like to go "north" (meaning add up) instead of south, depending on the new table, who is playing, any fish there, position and so on), but also for your position on the list etc.

Don't get me wrong, i like the room, good vibe, mostly very good dealers ... but the floor is corrupt as ****.

PS: A little off topic, i know ... but i thought it was worth the information