Hi all,

I read these forums a lot. I study poker a lot. I read books, watch vlogs, listen to podcasts, and watch a lot of Live at the Bike, Poker After Dark, etc... I like to think that this year I have dedicated a good amount of time to studying the game.

I'm 23 and I live in Australia. Recently online poker was banned here. I really felt like my game was improving while I was playing microstakes. Now this is gone, and I have no bankroll (uni graduate), but I still jump into the local 1/3 games at the casino sometimes. Not too regularly, but I enjoy the thrill of 'testing' myself in a live environment. My results fluctuate a lot. Some nights I win, some nights I lose. Lately I've been losing - about 4 or 5 sessions in a row.

Tonight I realised that I just don't want to play any more. The main issue was that I genuinely had been card-dead for hours. Getting lots and lots of 10-3, 8-4, j-5, 2-8, q-4, k-2 etc... I just can't put money into the pot with these hands. It's not how I've learned to play. And because of this I was receiving a lot of criticism from some of the older regs. One of them was running so well, it was ridiculous, and he kept on having digs at me any time I got involved in a pot. Comments like "oh what you must have pocket Aces"... I don't mind a bit of banter and I didn't let it appear to bother me, but the fact is, it's ****ing annoying.

These same guys will cry when a fish calls them down to the river with their gutshot straight draw (and win the pot), criticising them for playing like that, and then complain for me not playing with my rubbish cards. Look, I'm not bankrolled and obviously that means I am more likely to not open the biggest range of hands, but why is there a need to give me **** about it? If I'm card-dead, what can I do?

In the end I lost my stack with a full house to quads and this one old guy looked so satisfied to see me leave. I don't know what his problem was. He had been running like God. He was an old, fat, bald guy. Do you think he had some insecurities in life that he was taking out on me? Honestly, I'm a young guy in good shape, I dress well, on the surface I look like I have my life together (even though I definitely do NOT).

Anyway, the point is now... I just don't feel like playing again. I had such a bad time. I know I'm not a good player. But I'm trying to learn. I don't play crap hands and I guess you could say I am quite tight in early positions, but I base my game on what I've learned from players much better than myself...

I think I'll just stop playing for a few years until I get a bankroll I'm comfortable with. But then how much ground will I have to make up, without the live experience?

This game is so psychologically weird. I just don't get it. I make good decisions with my cards, I get my money in good, I just lose a lot of pots and don't seem to run well - for a long time. It makes me think that the only times I ever have made money are due to luck. It's f-cking with my head. I like this game but maybe it's just not for me.

Sorry for the rant.

Live poker is often annoying. Often discouraging too! As Doc H said. "Maybe pokers just not your game, Ike."

Why do you find this common table talk so annoying? Is it because of your ego? Do you take it as a challenge to your poker knowledge or ability? He's really just stating the obvious if in fact you have hardly played any hands for hours due to being card dead. Live poker players are trying to win money. If you are playing very few to no hands, then they can't win from you. Whether because you are a super nit or super card dead doesn't matter. So they try to goad you into playing more hands.

But you really should examine why such simple comments bother you to the point of wanting to quit. Just laugh it off, say something like "OK, I'm going to stop folding pocket kings preflop" . It really shouldn't bother you this much, or really bother you at all. If you believe you are playing correctly, then why give a **** what some old guy says? The way you attacked his personal appearance (fat, bald) makes me think this is your ego getting hurt. If he were in great shape with a full head of hair would you still have included a physical description of him in your post?

Think of it this way: all the talk has very little to do with you. If it is a bad player talking, then he's really just keeping his lips moving. If it wasn't about someone at the game, it might be about his last bowel movement. This is a good thing. Once their mouths stop working, their brains might start working (sorry, Douglas Adams). If it is a good player talking, then this is purely psychological, and he is trying to tilt you even further than you might already be. He just isn't so low class as to be insulting your mother, say. It actually has very little to do with you or how you play.

When they start talking, start analyzing, like you would do with any of their other plays. Because that is what it is, just another play, like check-raising. Once you start analyzing, you automatically distance yourself (somewhat, at least) from what is being said, and it stops being so personal. Once that happens, the tilting effect diminishes, and the fun starts to come back.

Of course, this is in parallel with how you mentally handle your runbad/card deadness. Without a proper bankroll or budget, it is hard to look at the long term, where all that stuff evens out, so you have to be aware of and ready for the fact that short term variance is going to dominate your perceptions of playing poker.

Good luck.

You make good points here.

Thank you for putting it into perspective. I understand better now. I definitely was tilted. I can be a bit mentally weak, so this ego trap comes out and compounds the emotional effect. And as you say, without a proper long-term strategy it all feels like it's falling apart anyway.

I think I'll just keep on studying the game, earn some real money (by working), and come back one day with a fresh mindset and a solid strategy.

No one that is there to gamble it up likes a tight nitty player, but they're going to lose in the long run and if you play correct you're going to win in the long run. Not even the greatest players in the world win every session.

Losing a FH to quads is just a cooler. Getting the money in good and seeing people draw out on you only shows how bad they are if the're calling all ins with inferior hands. If you saw their hand you would probably want them to call I'm sure, knowing there is a small possibility of them getting their one, two or 3 outer otr.

You can think of this crossroads in one of two ways. You can either use this as motivation to continue to improve and get better, then coming back to wipe these guys out in the long run, or you can take the easy way out and quit/take a few years off. The reward of staying with it is you're going to continue to improve and some day become a great player, but that's not going to happen if you just throw in the towel now.

Headphones are your friend in situations like this.

I would say there is nothing wrong with taking some time off to accumulate a bankroll and get your head together before returning to the game. This is where OP needs to improve, more than developing card/playing skills. It's hard to get better at other parts of playing poker if you are underfunded.

that's true but my philosophy is usually to get right back onto the horse, otherwise these things can linger on.

“I only play pocket aces. And even then, only because it takes 2 aces away from you guys”

If you play the game to have a good time and that's not the case anymore, maybe a different hobby would provide you with more enjoyment? There are so many things out there you could do with your free time. Lots of them also have the benefit of not having to sit in a chair for hours and deal with degenerates and miserable people.

This really depends on what you mean by long run. At entry-level games like 1/2, the game longevity is ultimately limited by inflation in the real world. There's a finite amount of money you can make by being a nit - people quit, people die, and at higher levels people go busto.

If you consider the long run to be your lifetime winnings, then you have to account for the fact that you have to move up sooner or later, and at higher levels you have to convince people to play with you.

The 2+2 attitude that you're going to sit there and win money and they will stew and make nasty comments but you'll just put on headphones and win their money is actually a very shortsighted view. The real long term view is this: sacrifice EV at smaller games if it helps you become a better player; move up stakes as fast as you can and spend as much time crushing the biggest game regularly available to you. And make sure people like you enough to want to play with you (even if they recognize they will lose money).

Headphones may give you a fist bump but thicker skin will help you move apartments.

lol god no

I play in Australia. People comment on how tight I am. I agree and joke along with them 'I'm waiting for suited aces' etc. Then I get a hand and raise and they call anyway.

One thing I will say, having an image as a total rock does generate additional fold equity post flop. So it's not actually a bad thing.

Australians take the piss and like people who banter. If they verbally noted you are tight and your response was to sit there with a face like a smacked arse, yeah they probably needled you and were probably glad you got coolered when you finally played a hand.

EDIT

"Nah, I haven't played a hand in ages so I thought I'd take a punt on Kings. Hope I flop a set...be King high...be King high...be King high...Jack high?! Far out I can't bet with just an overpair."

EDIT2

Look at this way, if you play correctly at a table of donkeys (i.e. every live low stakes table ever) you will be playing much tighter than the average and they will notice, which means someone will comment on it at some point in most sessions that you play. That's going to happen, so it's up to you to work out how you want to deal with it. If you find it super tilting, yeah probably this game is not for you.

Find friends who like to play and have your own game. The problem with the world is that there are other people in it and they are not always going to be the way we want them to be. We can;t really solve that problem.

Yes we can expect society to try to stop those who are really anti-social. And we can expect the casino or cardroom to remove those who go over a certain line .... but we can;t really make everyone act in a way that each of us individually finds pleasant.

Your opponent was annoying, and if he was making these comments while the game was in progress (and not heads up between the two of you) he was violating a basic poker rule and should be told to stop. But beyond that he wasn't really over the line.

But at the same time you should not be engaging in recreational activity that you are not enjoying. So the solution is to find a game that has people who behave in a way you prefer ... and that probably involves making it a prvate game with a selected group of people..... you can enjoy the challenger of poker while not having to deal with personalities that irritate you.

Now, outside of recreational activitites you will likely find yourself in situations where dealing with these people is not optional. To that end you may wish to try to work on finding a way to internally deal with this situation so that you can get yourself throgh it wthout going crazy.

Insecure people often become abusive to compensate for their insecurities. There's an obnoxious almost-needs-two-chairs-because-he-can't-fit-into-just-one guy where I often play that always has far more chins than he has chips that loves to try an needle women (meaning me) and any young male that he perceives genetically gifted. The last time he tried it with me the entire table started laughing when I said "oh -- are you saying something? I'm sorry I didn't hear you, I was distracted stacking what were your chips."

Learn to roll with it --try to use humor to deflect anger and pettiness. But if someone gets out of line, take it to the floor. I watched the Chin Monster get tossed one night because he escalated to physical threats against a young guy (who was bringing fun and laughter to the table). The table rallied around the nice kid, and Chin Monster got the exit door.

Humor goes a long way in group settings (and I don't mean inappropriate matter lifted from an old George Carlin recording). At low stakes, it's vital. The guy who can keep the table laughing at $1/2 or $1/3 keeps the money flowing.

This type of table talk is not common practice in the US, and I think OP has good reason to be upset about it. Maybe it is common in Australia though; is the country just full of *******s?

Someone will tell me that I'm a tight player in one way or another most sessions I play. Someone does it in a way that I perceive to be a$$holish, pretty much never.

That's not to say there's a zero ******* quotient, there's usually one guy at every table that I could do without but people actively being an ******* to me personally...probably 3 times in 500 hours? I don't know if that's a lot or not compared to the US.

Some quick thoughts while reading your OP:

Live poker really does become much easier when you are properly rolled or have otherwise separated your mind from the money. You take more correct risks.

If your VPiP for 84 is zero, you probably are too tight.

As others have said, it probably is a combination of the old dude's insecurities your own ego. Humility and self-depreciation go a long way in poker and in life. Be the rubber. It will tilt the right kind of ******* while putting everyone else on your side. For me, this has sharpened with age.

People commenting on other players hands in multiway spots is definitely significantly more common in casinos outside the US. Rooms try to stop it with limited success.

I've played in home games in Germany with lots of turkish-born guys where it was almost suprising if nobody commented on your hand during play. If somebody faced an all-in, half the table usually told him to call. Very infrequently, somebody recommended to fold..

Trying to play cash games without a proper roll can be challenging and frustrating. Over a month long period (last month) I had 12 winning sessions in a row profiting about $2800 at 1/2. That's my longest win streak to date and had me thinking it was time to go to 2/5... I decided to stay at 1/2 cause my roll wasn't ready for 2/5. The next week I lost 4 sessions in a row down $1100.

This is poker, variance is huge. Stacking your roll and continuing to study is a great plan!

Also, those big time cash games your watching are not the same kind of poker you're playing in a 1/3 game.

See comments above.
If you can't deal mentally with long spells of card deadness, punctuated by coolers, and accompanied by obnoxious banter, etc., then live poker really isn't for you.
If you're going to allow other players to tilt you by (merely) commenting (accurately!) that you're playing tightly, you're going to have a really hard time playing live long enough to improve your game.
I don't mean to be negative, but if you want to continue to play and enjoy this game, let alone make money at it, I would suggest that you try to make some mental adjustments as above. Also, I don't know what poker books you're read, but you might try reading some of the good ones on psychology, attitude and self-control.

I feel like I've been applying the information I've gained from these sources in the ways you speak about. As I said, I was playing a lot of microstakes online before it was banned and I have applied a lot of the theories in regards to ranges, probability and pot odds. Whenever I play live I keep a lot of notes on my phone about everything, ranging from information about other players, stack sizes, my own hand histories etc... I think you've jumped the gun by saying I haven't studied the game. I merely provided a background of where I've been learning about the game away from the table. I feel like this demonstrates that I am trying to become a thinking player - I don't just show up and hope to flop sets.

Just troll them, show bluffs, make snide sarcastic comments, do whatever you want really.