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Old 09-25-2021, 09:51 AM   #1
holmfries
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Fouled deck

So here is one I’ve never come across before. The room I play in is about to switch over to new cards, so in an effort to “use up” the old cards you they have switched their policy on replacing damaged cards. Instead of a new setup, they are replacing single damaged cards - which is happening more frequently (like we had four in an hour and a half) because the cards are old and brittle.

The procedure that is supposed to happen is that the dealer puts the damaged card aside, calls the floor, floor gets a replacement, they put the damaged card next to the new one to ensure it is the same front and back and then the card gets put into the deck.

Three switches go off without a hitch, but during the fourth (Td from a red backed deck) the floor takes the card off the table to retrieve the replacement. She brings back the Th, which gets put back into the deck, hand shuffled and dealt out in a hand which plays out.

There is more to the story, but I will stop there for now. Question is what (if anything) should the room do wrt to the hand(s) played with a fouled deck?
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Old 09-25-2021, 09:56 AM   #2
madlex
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Re: Fouled deck

Depends on when the fouled deck is discovered.

If it’s during the hand, the hand should be void and all bets returned.
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Old 09-25-2021, 10:48 AM   #3
browser2920
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Re: Fouled deck

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Depends on when the fouled deck is discovered.

If it’s during the hand, the hand should be void and all bets returned.
This. So if it's a case of 10 hands are played out after the mistake is made, and then on the 11th hand the flop has 2 x Th and the mistake is discovered, the results from the previous 10 hands stand. There is no adjustment made on hands completed prior to the discovery. But on that 11th hand, all money in pot is returned and hand is void.
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Old 09-25-2021, 10:48 AM   #4
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Re: Fouled deck

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Depends on when the fouled deck is discovered.

If it’s during the hand, the hand should be void and all bets returned.
Does it matter how far along the hand is? For example, if it is discovered at showdown versus preflop?

Does it matter where the fouled cards are? In other words, if the fouled cards are both on the board, versus both in a hand? Or even better, one of the fouled cards was in a folded player's hand and he didn't notice until towards the end of the hand? Should it matter if the fouled cards are irrelevent to the hands being played?
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Old 09-25-2021, 10:49 AM   #5
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Re: Fouled deck

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Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
Question is what (if anything) should the room do wrt to the hand(s) played with a fouled deck?
You would need to be more specific to get an accurate opinion from all the poker wizards....

Are you talking about hands that played out before the mistake was sound, or one particular hand in action when the mistake was caught???
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Old 09-25-2021, 11:22 AM   #6
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Re: Fouled deck

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Does it matter how far along the hand is? For example, if it is discovered at showdown versus preflop?

Does it matter where the fouled cards are? In other words, if the fouled cards are both on the board, versus both in a hand? Or even better, one of the fouled cards was in a folded player's hand and he didn't notice until towards the end of the hand? Should it matter if the fouled cards are irrelevent to the hands being played?
Different jurisdictions / gaming commissions might handle it differently but generally speaking none of that should matter.

A correct deck is a basic requirement to play a legal hand of poker. If we find out that requirement wasn’t met, no matter at what point in the hand, the hand basically never started.

If we find out somebody did some funny business like holding a card that’s also on the board, that should be addressed separately.
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Old 09-25-2021, 01:28 PM   #7
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Re: Fouled deck

As others have said above, if it's found during the hand, the hand is voided and all monies returned (and it is then replayed, same button position).

If the dupe card was in someone's folded hand, it's hard to figure how that would be discovered during the hand, because no one should be going through the muck mid-hand. But if someone was certain they had it, I guess after the hand was over the floor could be called to look. As long as it's before the next hand starts, it should void the hand. Ideally before the pot is pushed and stacked into the winner's other money, but even if not you do your best to reconstruct.

A player who knowingly plays a card that is duplicated can face further penalties, though in practice if they just say "I didn't notice" it's very hard to prove they knowingly did so.

RRoP relevant rules:
Quote:
If a card with a different color back appears during a hand, all action is void and all chips in the pot are returned to the respective bettors. If a card with a different color back is discovered in the stub, all action stands.

If two cards of the same rank and suit are found, all action is void, and all chips in the pot are returned to the players who wagered them (subject to next rule).

A player who knows the deck is defective has an obligation to point this out. If such a player instead tries to win a pot by taking aggressive action (trying for a freeroll), the player may lose the right to a refund, and the chips may be required to stay in the pot for the next deal.

A card discovered faceup in the deck (boxed card) will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper. A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck, except when the next card has already been dealt facedown to another player and mixed in with other downcards. In that case, the card that was faceup in the deck will be replaced after all other cards are dealt for that round.

A joker that appears in a game where it is not used is treated as a scrap of paper. Discovery of a joker does not cause a misdeal. If the joker is discovered before a player acts on his or her hand, it is replaced as in the previous rule. If the player does not call attention to the joker before acting, then the player has a dead hand.

If you play a hand without looking at all of your cards, you assume the liability of having an irregular card or an improper joker.

One or more cards missing from the deck does not invalidate the results of a hand.
TDA is more succinct:
Quote:
E: Fouled decks will be as defined by local gaming regulations and house policy. If a fouled deck is discovered, regardless of SA, play will stop and all bets will be returned. Once a hand concludes, the right to dispute based on a fouled deck ends according to Rule 22.
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Old 09-25-2021, 08:23 PM   #8
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Re: Fouled deck

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Depends on when the fouled deck is discovered.

If it’s during the hand, the hand should be void and all bets returned.
It was after the hand - the deck went into the shuffle master and it created an error because there were two Th.
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Old 09-25-2021, 08:42 PM   #9
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Re: Fouled deck

Once the green button is pushed, that is considered the next hand starting. (And usually you'd be well into dealing the next hand before the red light would come on to tell you there was a problem with the deck in the shuffler.)

In this situation, I would not void the previous hand by rule. It is too late.

I would have security review the tape to make sure they saw how 2 of them got introduced (OP seems to indicate it might have been an error during the card swap process I think), and make sure there was no other funny business, and also make sure there was no player who should have known there was a fouled deck and who played on anyway, perhaps trying for a freeroll. Not a very likely circumstance though.
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Old 09-27-2021, 08:29 AM   #10
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Re: Fouled deck

Yes, it's pretty much a concensus that if a hand isn't affected by the issue or discovered prior to pushing the pot (or the green button or the next 'first' riffle) that the hand will stand as played.

Obv procedure issue with the Floor .. and just 'bad' timing that the other deck was in the shuffler which caused the hand shuffle. GL


PS .. and yes, all bets are returned to all Players and the hand is considered a mis-deal with no movement of the Button.
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Old 09-28-2021, 09:34 AM   #11
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Re: Fouled deck

I played poker on a farm once, but they used a fowl deck.
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Old 09-28-2021, 10:23 AM   #12
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Re: Fouled deck

I'd probably rule this early enough to void the hand if I was the rule maker, since we know the deck was wrong the hand in question which is the biggest issue with rewinding imo.

And we should know who gets how much money back with not much work.
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Old 09-28-2021, 03:41 PM   #13
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Re: Fouled deck

Not really a rule maker call more a ruling maker call. The rule should be clear if it follows the normal standards. Normal rule is once next hand starts to late to roll back. In this case we probably have much of the next hand started so interrupting the new hand to rollback will cause confusion imo
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Old 09-30-2021, 12:43 AM   #14
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Re: Fouled deck

I believe once either the button is pushed on the shuffler or the scramble has started (hand shuffled tables) any previous hand's action will stand. However if a fouled deck is discovered during a hand all action should be stopped and everything essentially gets reset, money and blinds get returned and the hand starts over with a correct deck.
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Old 09-30-2021, 01:44 AM   #15
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Re: Fouled deck

Real confusion or the fake kind where people act like something is confusing because they don't want to lose money?
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Old 09-30-2021, 07:10 AM   #16
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Re: Fouled deck

Many, many years ago when automatic shufflers were still new enough to be a thing, I was playing $2/$5 at the Bellagio. For a few downs in a row the dealers are struggling with the shuffler as it keeps erroring out. One of the dealers is a bit cavalier with the deck as he tries to reset the shuffler. And constantly keeps moving the deck in play too close to the deck that is supposed to be in the shuffler. It keeps giving him a red light so he keeps resetting it while hand shuffling the current deck. One hand I get dealt pocket fives someone raises, I call and a couple other player call. Flop comes and includes a five. Instart thinking about the best way to get as many players to put as much money into the pot as possible. Bet, call, call, whatever. Turn is also a five so I have quads. Again i start thinking about the best way to get the most money into the pot as possible. I am first to act so I check, as it checks around I look at my hole cards and realize that the 5 of spades I have in my hand exactly matches the five of spades on the board. As I am confused by all of this trying to mentally compute what us going on, the dealer puts out the river and it is the 3rd five on the board. Now I am completely at a loss and can't quite figure out what is going on. The confusion is apparent on my face, so one of my opponents says out loud "OK, You have the 4th five, what are you going to do?" I look at him and think for a second and really want to troll him for a second because I finally realize that it is a fouled deck and I have a dead hand, but I cannot think of a good way to do it so I turn over my hand and show 5 of a kind and chaos ensues.

I still haven't come up with an appropriate action that would be funny, yet also make it clear I knew it was a fouled deck.
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Old 10-01-2021, 07:26 AM   #17
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Re: Fouled deck

When he says the 4th 5 line, you flip one over and say "You mean this 5?"

Wait about 5 seconds before flipping the other to give people a beat to react and wonder why you exposed your hand. Then flip over the second 5 and say "or this 5"

Not funny necessarily, but a good troll.
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