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Old 03-07-2019, 10:42 PM   #1
GoSitOnABanana
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Forward Motion Question

With Tom Dwan at about the 1:20 mark. I was curious if people thought this was forward motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkIkr8AVo8

I hate it when people do this to me whether I'm bluffing or have it... Is there a normal rule for this or is it different everywhere?
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Old 03-07-2019, 10:55 PM   #2
delfins
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Re: Forward Motion Question

TV pros is allowed do it.
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Old 03-07-2019, 11:03 PM   #3
Wilbury Twist
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Re: Forward Motion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoSitOnABanana View Post
With Tom Dwan at about the 1:20 mark. I was curious if people thought this was forward motion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gkIkr8AVo8

I hate it when people do this to me whether I'm bluffing or have it... Is there a normal rule for this or is it different everywhere?
I know at the nearby rooms here in Northern California (and it might be a state-wide thing), there is a betting line. If your chips move past it, it counts as your bet or raise.

By the way, there was a pretty funny counter-pump-fake move that Jamie Gold did a while back, I believe on Poker After Dark. He was bluffing, but when an opponent looked like he was calling, Jamie acted like he was about to table his winning cards. It was a quick "Call?? and a reach for his cards. The opponent had not actually made the call. I wish I could find it but I don't remember what episode it was, or who the other player was.

Probably a trick that would work only once, but still.
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Old 03-08-2019, 02:14 AM   #4
GoSitOnABanana
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Re: Forward Motion Question

All Jamie's moves were gold to me. I think he was the most fun to watch.
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Old 03-08-2019, 03:31 AM   #5
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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Originally Posted by Wilbury Twist View Post
I know at the nearby rooms here in Northern California (and it might be a state-wide thing), there is a betting line. If your chips move past it, it counts as your bet or raise.

By the way, there was a pretty funny counter-pump-fake move that Jamie Gold did a while back, I believe on Poker After Dark. He was bluffing, but when an opponent looked like he was calling, Jamie acted like he was about to table his winning cards. It was a quick "Call?? and a reach for his cards. The opponent had not actually made the call. I wish I could find it but I don't remember what episode it was, or who the other player was.

Probably a trick that would work only once, but still.
pretty sure that was Helmuth reaching for his cards to table them, but it was a bluff of strength or whatever you want to call it.
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:57 AM   #6
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Re: Forward Motion Question

It’s TV poker. Dealer won’t say anything unless a player complains. Unless you’re a guy like Phil Hellmuth you don’t want to look like an idiot on TV so the likelihood of a player calling that is very limited.

In a regular card room, that might cause a problem but unless it’s super blatant and/or chips obviously cross a hard betting line, chances are that a floor is going to warn a player first instead of holding him to a bet.

The only time I remember seeing a controversy about that was a situation where a player complained, the dealer claimed he didn’t have a clear view and the player asked the floor to view the tape. Floor answered that he won’t hold the game up over that and the upset player left after the hand.
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Old 03-08-2019, 09:15 AM   #7
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Itís TV poker. Dealer wonít say anything unless a player complains. Unless youíre a guy like Phil Hellmuth you donít want to look like an idiot on TV so the likelihood of a player calling that is very limited.

In a regular card room, that might cause a problem but unless itís super blatant and/or chips obviously cross a hard betting line, chances are that a floor is going to warn a player first instead of holding him to a bet.

The only time I remember seeing a controversy about that was a situation where a player complained, the dealer claimed he didnít have a clear view and the player asked the floor to view the tape. Floor answered that he wonít hold the game up over that and the upset player left after the hand.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhTsu8-Ed14

See at the 12:15 mark
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Old 03-08-2019, 10:31 AM   #8
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Re: Forward Motion Question

This is a very 'hot' topic lately. I started another thread about it in this same section that you can look through.

For the majority of poker the use of 'forward motion' is no longer relevant to rulings using chips or cards. With the emphasis now on the release of chips into the betting area.

With the decreasing number of rooms that use a betting line it's becoming much more common to allow Players to cut out chips in the betting area without first verbalizing their action.

There are quite a few spots where a Player moved chips forward but never released them and then pulled them back with no enforcement of an action. While certainly this is non-standard and opens the door up to cause an opponent to make an action that may give off information it's 'legal' but frowned upon if abused. GL
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Old 03-11-2019, 10:52 PM   #9
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Re: Forward Motion Question

Forward motion is about making a bet, not a call. Forward motion was always a limit concept.
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Old 03-12-2019, 12:03 AM   #10
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Re: Forward Motion Question

The rules surrounding it have morphed over the years, and will continue to evolve.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:08 AM   #11
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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The rules surrounding it have morphed over the years, and will continue to evolve.
I am sure they will. Rules that have changed over time because they need to is a good thing. Rules that change because they are poorly understood make the game vulnerable. I haven't stepped in a poker room for years and it has been over a decade since I stepped into a west coast room.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:18 AM   #12
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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Forward motion is about making a bet, not a call. Forward motion was always a limit concept.
This statement makes perfect sense with your other one above. Times have changed ... and then they changed again. At least you preface your statements with a logical timeline point of view.

When I first started playing (200x) your hand was considered mucked if you made a forward motion with them facing action. Now you can toss them craps-style across the table and as long as you can identify them, your hand is live.

One of the hardest tasks when reviewing threads/posts on this site is trying to determine if someone is stating 'fact' or 'opinion' and what the basis of either might be. I've seen plenty of rule 'trends' take their time getting from coast to coast ... and certainly receiving resistance many places in the middle along the way. GL
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Old 03-12-2019, 04:12 PM   #13
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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This statement makes perfect sense with your other one above. Times have changed ... and then they changed again. At least you preface your statements with a logical timeline point of view.

When I first started playing (200x) your hand was considered mucked if you made a forward motion with them facing action. Now you can toss them craps-style across the table and as long as you can identify them, your hand is live.
Wat? There are places where you can toss your cards across the table while facing action and that not be considered a fold? Never heard of that, terrible rule if it's true.
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Old 03-12-2019, 05:06 PM   #14
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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Wat? There are places where you can toss your cards across the table while facing action and that not be considered a fold? Never heard of that, terrible rule if it's true.
I've seen cards get tossed after chips have been put in the pot get pulled off the muck if they are identifiable. Don't think I've ever seen someone throw cards in then call and get them back though.
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Old 03-12-2019, 07:17 PM   #15
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Re: Forward Motion Question

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Originally Posted by Franchise5 View Post
I've seen cards get tossed after chips have been put in the pot get pulled off the muck if they are identifiable. Don't think I've ever seen someone throw cards in then call and get them back though.
There is a huge difference between facing action and facing no action. Tossing your cards forward face down is almost always considered a fold. You cannot fold when facing no action (in other words, you cannot fold at showdown).
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:11 AM   #16
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Re: Forward Motion Question

Yes .. oops .. forward motion facing action is a fold. Meant at Showdown. Not sure what my fingers were thinking ... GL
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Old 03-14-2019, 01:00 PM   #17
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Re: Forward Motion Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadstriker View Post
The rules surrounding it have morphed over the years, and will continue to evolve.
Yup. In the old days, you could pump-fake as much as you wanted to, and it wasn't a bet until you actually released chips into the pot (and everyone knew this).
Today, much different (and different in different rooms).
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:28 PM   #18
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Re: Forward Motion Question

I deal in Vegas at multiple casinos, the rules are different for each room. Some the rule is it's not a bet or a call until the chips have been released from the hand. Others it's forward motion.
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Old 03-14-2019, 09:43 PM   #19
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Re: Forward Motion Question

Even in limit games?
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Old 03-18-2019, 08:52 PM   #20
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Re: Forward Motion Question

we always didnt act until the action to you was complete. simple as that. it was no bet until someone released their chips, so as long as you had your hands on them it wasnt a bet. verbal still played if in turn, but casino didnt and still doesnt guarantee you get payed if you accept a verbal bet.
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Old 03-18-2019, 10:07 PM   #21
e1cnr
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Re: Forward Motion Question

I have played places where the forward motion betting line only comes to play in tournaments but not cash.
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