You might and maybe I agree it should. But TDA and IIRC RRoP both defer to a floor decision.

In a forward motion rule, the bet starts when the chips start going forward. It’s not a conditional statement. And it’s not like he said “all in” after the guy said “call”, he just used whatever was in his hand.

Talked to a floorman today about this thread.

His only question was if there was a pause in cutting the chips, before the other player said call. If so, he might consider declaring that to be the bet amount, depending on other factors not specified.

Since there was no pause before the call declaration, the bet is whatever is released.

I think we can all agree that an obvious string bet would change the situation.

Pausing while cutting out chips isn't a string bet, obvious or not, at least IMO in most normal cases, as long as your arm stays out and you don't move your hand away. But it could well explain why an overeager opponent might think you had finished the bet.

Having said that, there's nothing in OP to suggest that this is what happened either. In fact, he says "There was literally no pause when I cut out chips."

Perhaps we don't believe him, or think he is remembering it how he wants to. He did describe changing his mind from betting 30-45 to betting 60-75 after cutting out the first stack of 15. So maybe he paused after cutting out 60, deciding whether to bet 75 instead. But unless the dealer backs up that description, I'm not sure how a floor would ever be privy to his internal monologue about it, so either the dealer saw him pause or he didn't. (And pausing isn't really enough to call it a string bet either, in most cases.) And from the OP, it doesn't sound like the dealer mentioned any pause.

As an aside, were it me, once he prematurely says call, and if I decide I am going to maximize the opportunity by betting whatever is left in my hand still, I will just stop cutting chips and drop the remainder of the stack on the felt. At game speed, though, perhaps that is less easy to do.

There's enough experience itt that we don't need to ask a floorman, of course if he paused it would be considered a string bet. That wasn't the question.

The room allows you to bring out a stack, cut out a bet and bring the rest back.
I don't think a pause on it's own is a reason to declare the bet complete.
Hiccups happen, chips are slightly more/less sticky and may need to be reset/adjusted in hand causing a pause.
Nothing indicates that Hero paused at all, but even a slight pause shouldn't negate the ability to bet the amount intended.

I think there is a case for treating the Villain as acting OOT. If the call was made prior to the bet being completed, then I could see the argument that the amount of the bet changed and V has all options. Villain can simply wait until the bet is complete to act. If V interrupts, I'd like to see the dealer remind V that it's not yet on them and allow H to complete their action.

If Hero cut out some chips, Villain interrupts and Hero pauses for clarification, I'd like Hero to be able to continue to bet with any chips already in the hand/across the line.

We can probably discuss defining a pause as a string bet. The literal definition is betting in more than one motion .. it really doesn't say that the 'more' is in X or Y direction (my CNC background)

I would certainly entertain a Rule #1 by a Floor if called and the description of the spot was different. How different? There are probably many ways to twist the possibilities that mainly involve how OP reacts to the verbal call.

1) OP pauses .. looks at V, smiles .. drops rest of chips .. probably not allowing the drop
2) OP pauses, says I'm not done betting yet to Dealer or V .. drops rest of chips .. probably allowing the drop
3) OP pauses, asks Dealer if the call is binding .. drops rest of chips .. it's a bet
4) OP pauses, acts surprised, doesn't say anything, restarts the bet .. who knows

I would hope that we all agree that any chips on the felt at the time of the statement are binding .. then we enter the 'who might be angling who' phase. Is V angling to stop the betting? The OP of the thread is whether or not the OP is now angling by continuing to bet.

IMO any disruption of the cutting of the chips stops the bet .. UNLESS we have outside influence, which we do in this spot. Now we have to go into the intent business based on actions and interpretation of observing those actions.

'We' want a straight forward decision in every spot, but I just don't think we can automatically say that any/all chips moved forward are still available to bet until we can absorb all the details. No matter what a Player be may getting away with an angle-ish action here .. do we sway to the side of the bettor since the V made a mistake and/or initiated the first possible angle? GL


PS .. I don't like any mention of OOT action here, it sets up opportunity for future issues. Any time a Player comes out with a stack I can say 'call' after the first cutting and force a reaction by the bettor, thus getting my own read on the bet sizing with all options available. 'We' don't want to go down that road IMO.

I was HU with player wearing headphones I declared my bet out loud and then purposely push my chips in two separate motion.
When the action return to other player she immediately took off her headphones and said. “ He can’t do that it a string bet!”
Dealer responds “ he verbalized before putting the chips in”
Rest of the table looks amused cause obviously she was listening to music through headphones.
She obviously did not like my bet either and folded

.

Interesting that my explanation of the only exception to the bet being whatever is released is being focused on and not the conclusion. I suppose I need to work on that.

In short, baring some exceptional condition, the bet is whatever Hero chooses to release. The player in the wrong is the one declaring a call before the bet is complete.

Poker, however, is so situationally dependent that most rooms have an "in the best interest of the game" rule that allows the floor to rule against a strict interpretation.

Agree, totally opposed to a rule that allows the next to act player to yelp out "call" during a bet and not be bound to calling.

“As I dropped the first stack of 3, I remembered a hand previously where villain did not believe me and think he might payoff more. So now I am trying to decide between betting 60 or 75. I continue to to cut out stacks of 3 red chips. As I am dropping my 4th stack ($60) the villain says "Call" “

Based on this you probably paused longer than you realize and long enough to create the impression that you were done cutting out chips. And since you are former craps dealer you probably cut out the first three stacks very quickly, in which case even a brief pause with the fourth stack would be very noticeable.

Even if true, which I have already agreed with in a prior post, it explains WHY V may have called prematurely. But does it impact the amount V committed to calling?

I don't think it does esp. if dealer doesn't mention it to floor BEFORE any "prodding" from rest of the table. Even if the dealer mentions it I am not certain l limit the bet to $60 or even $75. This isn't blitz chess waiting 5 sec (or less) will not kill the game or its pace.

If this was true someone would just yell out CALL every time someone was cutting chips without announcing their bet just to angle them. The current situation is much better than the supposed “solution”.

You already said it yourself that you felt dirty. But that’s the type of people in casinos.

I genuinely do not think the villain was trying to angle me. I really think he was sick of me pushing around the table and getting people to fold. I think he had decided in his mind he was going to call whatever so he just acted early.

That said, I was in predatory mode. I knew I was good and I was 100% focused on getting max value. So when he prematurely said call, I instinctively cut out everything in my hand. I was so focused on getting max value it was as simple as breathing.

I know my actions were 100% legal. I knew the rules better than everyone else and i knew what the floor ruling would be so it was easy to continue to cut chips. I just thought about it afterwards and felt a bit slimy for what I did. However I was also I bit angry at villain for making me feel slimy for betting out my stack because he was premature. I genuinely do not know how much I actually would have bet and his out of turn call forced it.

real question is if he said raise then what would you have done on the spot re: bet sizing

That is an impossible question to answer honestly. For one, it is so far after the fact that the actual results dominate any thinking about the hand. For two, it is an unrealistic question. Just the way the hand played out I absolutely knew I was good. Like I said, I was thinking 100% about extracting maximum value. There was a history of me running over the table and I realized as I was betting that he was probably the only player who would "stand up to the bully", so I realized I could bet more to get more value.

So to answer your question, I would either snap call or think for a few seconds and then call, but honestly that wasn't a realistic outcome.

As to why the guy left and was willing to get banned over $40, I think he was getting frustrated because he saw me running over the table left and right and saw everyone else folding far too much. He really wanted someone to call me, but he was running cold so he never had the opportunity to call me. I think when the happened his frustration just boiled over so he left (good for him recognizing his frame of mind).

I suspect he was not a regular at the room and it probably was even his first time playing there and probably was never coming back. In fact, I suspect that if the floor hand simply ruled that it was $100 he would have paid and left. Instead the floor basically told him he had to pay the extra $40 or be banned (sort of giving him an option). He probably figured I am never coming back so thanks for the $40.

After thinking about your question some more I can see a strange situation where the guy has AK of the flush suit and somehow makes it to the turn with the nut flush draw and then when it hits the river he would check to me knowing I would bet.

If that was the case I would completely pay him off. It would be a strange way of playing suited AK, but it wouldn't be unheard of. Furthermore, there are far more hands (such as two pair or missed straights himself) that he would be willing to go all in with that I would absolutely have to call.

Like I said previously, the way the action went it would be strange, but I wouldbhave to absolutely call a shove.

As far as the raise situation, I might hit the brakes at 60 since you know it will be at least 120 (min raise) which is more than what you have in your hand. If you're that confident that you have the best hand as you suggest, then you continue to put out 'your' max bet of 100. Then it will be 200 min once they force him to raise. GL

I used to travel around a lot and played in rooms all over the country. I didn't know what rooms had what rules in place and so I developed a set of habits that protected me no matter where I was.

One of them is to cut out a bet behind my cards/betting line and move only those chips forward. I normally count them in stacks of 3, 4, or 5 chips and usually the dealer will watch this and know how much I'm betting without having to count it. It makes the game run a little smoother and there's never any ambiguity about a bet size.

Might be because we work in the industry, but yeah I've never had an issue doing it either. I see people trying to bet 100 in red birds 2 at at time with both hands, and just shrug my shoulders. They're not trying to angle, they just don't know what they're doing. The guy who says (even though the player hasn't stopped) that's a string bet is the one I have a problem with.

IMO it wasn't even an angle that you were forced into. There's a small chance villain was trying to get you to cut your bet short. Also IMO, if you think you have the better hand and villain gave info prematurely, keep cutting out chips and take the win. For higher comedy value, do this with the absolute nuts.