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Old 12-17-2017, 01:45 PM   #51
Carnivore
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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Originally Posted by MJ88 View Post
I'm not saying that I would do this every time, or even that it's the best play most of the time. It really would depend on how I read the other player and what I think their image of me is. Folding the flop is fine here. But I hate just calling the flop here and then folding to a bet on the turn.
If you're going to play a hand like K3, and you do flop a K in a multiway limped pot, you might as well try for the pot somewhere along the line. When you check the flop, and someone else bets out, and you just call, what are you hoping will happen on the next two streets?
If I do get into this situation with K3 on the flop (which I wouldn't from the SB, but could from the BB), (i.e., OOP with TP + very weak kicker, and no draws), and anyone else bets the flop, I'm either way behind (vs. a better K or better), or pretty far ahead (vs. a J or a pocket pair or worse), but with a hand which cannot really stand any pressure at all.... raising here forces the other player to make a decision about continuing, also to define their own hand.
IME, against a not-too-imaginative OMC type (one who's capable of folding here), and especially if I think I have a pretty TAG image myself, CR here has a good chance of getting a better hand (random K) to fold, or (maybe) of dissuading a weaker hand from betting me off the hand on the turn and river. Again, it depends on how I read the other guy, and on what I think he will think my action means (KJ?)....
Just my own thoughts......

I think your logic here is terrible. Check raising with this is just plain awful. Our hand is a nice bluff catcher. If we CR the flop we are basically over repping our hand and tyrning it into a bluff and using 1970's omc logic to justify our nonsencial play. This hand is perfect for a triple check call. Or in the right situation a triple lead line maybe. Against some opponents on some runouts we find a fold....
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Old 12-20-2017, 10:17 AM   #52
melnor
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

K3 is not worth 3 streets of value on KKJ2x where it doesn't improve. It's hard for me to imagine even a microstakes grinder calling 3 streets with AJ here.
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Old 12-20-2017, 10:42 AM   #53
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
I think your logic here is terrible. Check raising with this is just plain awful. Our hand is a nice bluff catcher. If we CR the flop we are basically over repping our hand and tyrning it into a bluff and using 1970's omc logic to justify our nonsencial play. This hand is perfect for a triple check call. Or in the right situation a triple lead line maybe. Against some opponents on some runouts we find a fold....
I didn't say that this was the optimum play against all or random opponents.
But against the right OMC, especially if they think I'm super-tight (both as in OP), I think it's a pretty good play.
"1970's omc logic" might be exactly right for the right OMC....
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Old 12-20-2017, 11:25 AM   #54
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

I had this experience last night. 2/5 game, very loose/splashy/gambly in general. V in question is usually very tight and doesn't get out of line.

I open to $30 with KQ 2 callers

Flop comes queen high, one . I bet $75, V x/c quickly.

Turn is a . I bet $165, V x/c quickly.

River is a Q (board Q-8c-4-9c-Q). V shoves for $400. I don't really think V has it in him to bluff this river. He really can only have A-Q to make this play. I think he checks 98% of his range (including J-10 because the board paired) and jams with AQ (1%) and pure bluffs (the other 1%). I tanked and folded face up.

He quickly mucked (which made me think he was actually bluffing) and claimed he had me out-kicked. Then another player at the table who was not involved in the hand quietly told me that they had folded the case Q. I don't think he actually heard that conversation as he is hard of hearing but he maintained that had AQ even when he left for the night and cashed out. But even without that information, I feel like he lied to me even then. He tried a little too hard to look me right in the eye when he said it.

So I got bluffed off three queens in a pretty big pot and most of the table knows it.

Later that night, two other players ran big bluffs against me later (including a check-raise all-in on the river that made no sense) and I snapped them both off.

So I think that it actually yielded positive results. I also tend to be a bit of a station on the river so I don't mind when people bluff me. For me, it worked out but I rarely ever show my cards unless I think I have a winner.
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:14 PM   #55
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
I had this experience last night. 2/5 game, very loose/splashy/gambly in general. V in question is usually very tight and doesn't get out of line.

I open to $30 with KQ 2 callers

Flop comes queen high, one . I bet $75, V x/c quickly.

Turn is a . I bet $165, V x/c quickly.

River is a Q (board Q-8c-4-9c-Q). V shoves for $400. I don't really think V has it in him to bluff this river. He really can only have A-Q to make this play. I think he checks 98% of his range (including J-10 because the board paired) and jams with AQ (1%) and pure bluffs (the other 1%). I tanked and folded face up.

He quickly mucked (which made me think he was actually bluffing) and claimed he had me out-kicked. Then another player at the table who was not involved in the hand quietly told me that they had folded the case Q. I don't think he actually heard that conversation as he is hard of hearing but he maintained that had AQ even when he left for the night and cashed out. But even without that information, I feel like he lied to me even then. He tried a little too hard to look me right in the eye when he said it.

So I got bluffed off three queens in a pretty big pot and most of the table knows it.

Later that night, two other players ran big bluffs against me later (including a check-raise all-in on the river that made no sense) and I snapped them both off.

So I think that it actually yielded positive results. I also tend to be a bit of a station on the river so I don't mind when people bluff me. For me, it worked out but I rarely ever show my cards unless I think I have a winner.
I mean this isn't a strategy forum but if you were getting 2:1 to call and had a 1:1 chance of winning that was a horrible fold.

Showing in this case only "worked" because you made a strategic mistake - one that cost you by your own estimates about $280 (half of the post-turn pot). If you're a $40/hr winner you sacrificed 7 hours of EV by folding; how much EV did you really get back?
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:59 PM   #56
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

Where did you get the idea that I had a 1:1 chance of winning?

Edit: Ok I think I see where you got that from. I did not mean to imply that 50% of his shoving range was AQ and the other 50% a bluff, although I did say that. I should have worded that differently.

What I meant to say was, 98% of his shoving range on the river is AQ. It's just so rare to catch someone in a bluff with this line.
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Old 12-20-2017, 01:03 PM   #57
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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I mean this isn't a strategy forum but if you were getting 2:1 to call and had a 1:1 chance of winning that was a horrible fold.
This was my second thought. My first thought was why would you think he would be afraid to bet a straight but would definitely bet trips for value?
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Old 12-20-2017, 01:05 PM   #58
Koko the munkey
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

Maybe I should have had more coffee this morning.
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Old 12-26-2017, 05:59 PM   #59
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

How come he would check JT and shove AQ when JT > AQ on that board?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koko the munkey View Post
I had this experience last night. 2/5 game, very loose/splashy/gambly in general. V in question is usually very tight and doesn't get out of line.

I open to $30 with KQ 2 callers

Flop comes queen high, one . I bet $75, V x/c quickly.

Turn is a . I bet $165, V x/c quickly.

River is a Q (board Q-8c-4-9c-Q). V shoves for $400. I don't really think V has it in him to bluff this river. He really can only have A-Q to make this play. I think he checks 98% of his range (including J-10 because the board paired) and jams with AQ (1%) and pure bluffs (the other 1%). I tanked and folded face up.

He quickly mucked (which made me think he was actually bluffing) and claimed he had me out-kicked. Then another player at the table who was not involved in the hand quietly told me that they had folded the case Q. I don't think he actually heard that conversation as he is hard of hearing but he maintained that had AQ even when he left for the night and cashed out. But even without that information, I feel like he lied to me even then. He tried a little too hard to look me right in the eye when he said it.

So I got bluffed off three queens in a pretty big pot and most of the table knows it.

Later that night, two other players ran big bluffs against me later (including a check-raise all-in on the river that made no sense) and I snapped them both off.

So I think that it actually yielded positive results. I also tend to be a bit of a station on the river so I don't mind when people bluff me. For me, it worked out but I rarely ever show my cards unless I think I have a winner.
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Old 12-26-2017, 06:33 PM   #60
Ray Zee
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

showing was the bad part. as the bad players will fear your bets more and against them you wont be bluffing much. so your net results will be costly and last a long time.

to say it again it never ,ever ever, is good for the game or good for you to show a laydown of a big looking hand.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:15 AM   #61
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

Generally speaking, don’t show. But here’s the thing: when you do show, you know what you showed, so you can act accordingly in future hands.

At all times, you should be aware of what your image is. Here you’ve created an image just the same as you do when not showing. Just be aware of what it is.
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Old 12-27-2017, 03:21 AM   #62
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

(Aside: this is a great example of why a hand like k2 is not even worth the obligatory $2 99 percent of players would throw in to see a flop. But if you play correctly and don’t throw in the $2, that also puts a neon “nit” sign over your head.)
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Old 12-27-2017, 05:08 PM   #63
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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Originally Posted by Fletcher2323 View Post
Generally speaking, don’t show. But here’s the thing: when you do show, you know what you showed, so you can act accordingly in future hands.

At all times, you should be aware of what your image is. Here you’ve created an image just the same as you do when not showing. Just be aware of what it is.
This assumes you are playing against people who are actually paying attention. And if they are paying too much attention, they will use it against you, but I don't think that happens often at LLNL.

I just never show unless I have to or unless I think I have the best hand. (Cannot stand people who wait for the other guy to show when they think/know they have it unless there is a very good reason, which is rare.)
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Old 12-27-2017, 07:41 PM   #64
Fletcher2323
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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Originally Posted by Javanewt View Post
This assumes you are playing against people who are actually paying attention. And if they are paying too much attention, they will use it against you, but I don't think that happens often at LLNL.
Agree. Part of being aware of your own image is knowing which opponents are even paying attention.
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Old 12-28-2017, 11:46 AM   #65
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

Fun short session yesterday. 7 handed and the players were definitely paying attention since I was new to the room. One guy quipped that "We show in this room." when I bet pot on the Turn in an early hand and took it down. I said "Just remember that I always have a Queen" .. showing him a Q. In an amazing run I was able to show a Q in 7 of my next 10 hands 'where I could show' and the whole table bought into it.

Short time later it was 6-ways on a QQT Flop and I had 44 OTB. Checked around and I bet 1/3 pot. Everyone folded with the last guy showing an AT and saying "You and your Queens"! (Yes, pat on back) This was true live poker. Know your image, know your table and pay attention to spots that come up and react to them without drawing attention to it by acting natural.

Up $480 in two hours, my wife's Granny had completed her slot fun and walked up wanting to leave. I said "normally I would stay and dump all this back to you guys but Granny is here to save me" and I left. GL
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:50 PM   #66
2pairsof2s
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Re: Folding a strong hand face up - pros and cons?

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Lol why do so many people on these forums write with such passive aggressive tones?

Even if you are smarter and better at poker than the person you are talking to, do you really need to be condescending about it?

Maybe that's something people should think about away from the sanctuary of an internet forum.
The thing is you made basic errors in the play of the hand. How can that be expressed?
  1. Come right out and rudely say you are both a fish (terrible preflop call, folding strong hand face-up,) and a nit (questionable fold of trips.) Or,
  2. Try to convey the same message without being mean or rude about it and be accused of being passive-aggressive and condescending.
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