It has always been explained to me that the reason for the difference is because we want to make sure the best hand wins at showdown. That’s why I brought it up into this discussion. I don’t know how we reconcile wanting the best hand to win at showdown and not awarding the pot to the best hand in the OP’s post.


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I've heard that, but don't really agree with it. We want the best tabled hand to win at showdown. A player can always just simply table his hand and thereby never accidentally muck a winner. But IMO if a player decides to muck, because he has decided that "hiding info" is worth the risk of making a mistake, and takes that action, then he has to live with that decision. Why wshould he be allowed to reverse it at that point? You don't get to reverse any other action.

A huge distinction that can explain the difference is that at showdown there are no further actions to be taken, but in the other example there are, so the release can be used to "get a read" in that situation.

Guy bets the turn, I throw my cards forward, he exhales, I grab my cards and say NOPE CALL. Or I throw my cards forward, see the player behind me motion to fold, and then grab my cards and call.

Whereas at showdown, all action is complete, so there is no benefit to doing the "pump fake" muck.

If we really wanted to make sure the best hand won at showdown, we would require all hands be shown.

By rule, yes. Tossing your hand forward, face down, while facing a bet is considered a fold.

I wasn't trying to be revolutionary, there have been a few threads where the discussion included the concept that a Player can't Fold at Showdown since they aren't facing action .. but they can attempt to Muck their holding. Similarly to Square v Rhombus, folks have been using the terms interchangeably, but there must be a difference, yes? It appears so, but not in favor of my eloquently supplied verbiage.

... A quick use of the search tool within Robert's shows that the only place 'Muck' is used to describe cards (not 'the' pile of discards) is in draw games when a player sets card(s) aside to alert the Dealer of how many they want to draw. Those are 'discarded' or Mucked in a poker sense and are pulled into the Muck pile by the Dealer.

In fact, within IWTSTH Robert's uses the word 'folded' to describe the hand that is to be exposed. So I was barking up the wrong tree ... (man, 15 minutes goes by fast)

So let's continue with:
1) A folded hand that's not retrievable .. facing action or out of turn
2) A folded hand that IS retrievable .. at Showdown

I, obviously, still want to go with my suggested different terms but the Rules don't allow for it at this time.

The only way to get your cards back (and then make another action) Pre-Showdown would be through some gross misunderstanding ... And I really don't think that would fly very often. Like if you completely misunderstood the amount of the bet or some other 'misinformation'. There's basically zero chance of this happening if a player acts behind you as well. GL

Your claims and opinions, as well as mine, are just those. But many of the ones expressed here are opinions of actual dealers and floors whose opinions matter more in the rooms where they work because their opinions are the rules of those rooms. And as to how a hand getting tabled, the holders derives do not matter. If X tries to muck by flinging the cards or slamming them down an they somehow happen the flip over face up on the table, they are tabled. If a second player inadvertently accidentally hits X cards as being tossed in and they flip over the hand is tabled. Those are not my opinions but are actual rulings or events I have seen more than once in more than one room. May not be ruled that way everywhere. But in my experience with zero counter rulings I expect that would be the ruling in the majority of rooms.

If another player intentionally tabled X hand, I would expect that the best hand should win rule would also apply. I would also expect the third party to be asked to leave for at least a week maybe longer depending on history. Of course this is my opinion, but it seems to align with many here who do,this for a living

I agree that I'm just stating my opinion. I thought I made that clear when I said "JMHO of course" in one of my earlier posts. And I am glad you put so much weight on those who deal and play for a living, as I do both. So it's just a discussion. I did quote wording in the rules that indicates that a player must table his own cards. Those like you, who believe anyone can table another persons cards are certainly entitled to your opinion as well, but have not yet quoted any rules to support that opinion.

In most card rooms and casinos I've played in, when the dealer is asked to show a hand folded by a player either because of the SOSA rule or for some other legitimate reason, the dealer touches the folded cards to the muck to make sure they are dead before showing them. Is this the standard rule?

(1) Nothing is the standard rule.
(2) Touching cards to the muck doesn't actually do anything in most rooms, other than signify that the hand isn't live. But it's the rule that makes them not live, not the touching to the muck. (In the small minority of rooms with a magic muck rule, touching the cards to the muck would actually kill them.)

true but dealer didnt... difference between what should happen and what did happen.

As if we were destined to discuss this during this week!

PLO game - 3-way AIPF - 2 Boards

Player A shows top set on first Board and trip 6s on 2nd Board.
Player B tables 'only' 2nd set on first Board and then picks the cards back up.
Player B then 'comically' indicates he has a straight on the bottom by tabling an illegal gutter 7

Player C (not in hand) looks at Player B's cards while he's holding them up and says "No, you have two straights!!" and tables two 7s.
Player B picks up the two 7s and returns returns them to holding them up in front of him.

Player C then says, "Look, you have a flush on the bottom Board!!" and proceeds to yank all four of Player B's cards from him and tables them 'for him'.

In the mean time, Dealer has pushed the side pot (Player B not involved) to Player A and is in the process of pushing the main pot after already announcing a scoop for Player A.

So Player B has tabled 3 of his four cards, but not 'together' ... and Player C has now tabled 2 of them (including the 4th) .. then all four of them, including the key 7 that makes the flush on the bottom Board.

Ruling? GL

Best tabled hand wins, regardless of who tabled it. (Though I confess I found your description of what happened a little confusing.)

Suit said earlier in this thread (I think) that if someone else tables a hand it is dead. I don't agree with that anyway, but in that example he was at least talking about a hand which the player had already thrown forward face down.

In this case, the player is (I think) still holding his cards when another player grabs them and tables them. Player B could well have realized he had a flush at some point and tabled his hand himself. There is no way you can kill his hand since he hadn't yet actually even attempted to fold/muck it, he just hadn't yet tabled his hand.

Also, what the hell is dealer doing pushing the pot before he has killed all the losers, and in fact before all other players had even tabled or attempted to fold/muck their hands?

Player C who tabled another players cards gets a warning and/or 86ed. He is the one who caused this whole mess. Player B gets a technical foul for (I think) making jokes and moving cards between his hand and the board (I think).

This, the dude mucked his hand.

What's the difference who asks the dealer to enforce SOSA?

If someone else at the table said "What did he show?", there would be no question that the hand is dead. So what's the difference if the winning player asked the dealer to enforce it? I don't recall reading anything in SOSA stating a mucked hand becomes live.

Yes, lots of keystone cops in this spot. I was Player A and didn't fight the Floor ruling of a 'finally' table hand for a chopped main pot. Dealer was obviously not having his best day prior to the hand as well so this added to it for sure. If there's a 'mistake' I wish he had made it would've been to muck the Boards to make room to push the pots!

There were a couple of Players at the table the were impressed that I didn't blow my cork!! GL

So much for one player to a hand.

What is an illegal gutter 7?

Duh. Clearly a bowling ball that bounces out of the gutter and knocks down the 7 pin.

Really illegal if it picks up the 10 too.

On re-reading, I now presume he means he only had the one straight card (the 7) in his hand, and the other 4 were all on the board. Since it's PLO, not really a straight. Player C then extended the joke by saying he had 2 straights, because he had 77 in his hand. Then C noticed B actually had a flush and tabled B's cards for him, for real.

That makes sense.

It's like dinesh and I are one in the same ... hopefully we never meet on the felt as you read me like a book! GL

Player 2

casinos rule differently. many rule hand dead except if the winner calls for it to be shown.

my take is the dealer needs to take a vacation with the floorman who is supposed to make sure his dealers follow procedures properly. the proper procedure is to kill all losing hands then push the pot. losing hands should never be left on the table after the pot is pushed.

kill all losing hands, push the pot, then move the button. that solves many of those problems.

in many rooms if called at showdown all hands are live until killed by the dealer or not retrievable.
if facing a bet your hand is dead if you push it forward.