This happened to someone I know.

"5 way limp pot. Flop is xyz. All check. Turn is x. Big blind makes pot size bet.
All fold. The dealer mucks the board and pushes me (bb) the pot as I toss him my cards. Now, out of the blue, this guy says "what about me" and he still has cards. He was hiding his cards as he did always. So, the pot is sitting in front of me, the board cards and my cards are face down in the muck when the floor comes over. The ruling is that the only live hand gets the pot. Say what? He didn't even call the bet. The dealer already awarded me the pot. Two people acted after him. And he gets the pot?"

Was this the correct ruling?

It will vary. Some floor will rule that you get the pot, others that he gets the pot.

To make sure this never happens to you, it behooves you to pay more attention. You should know how many people in the pot, and you should look for that many actions. Since you know this guy tends to hide cards, and you know he's in the pot, then you should pay special attention to him before you release your cards. Dealers make mistakes too, sometimes. It's not fair, but it's life.

If you had remembered that Mr. Hidey was in the hand, and you hadn't seen him fold, then you could have avoided this. That way you save yourself from a possibly bad ruling.

No, the ruling is not correct. The correct ruling is that the player that was "hiding" his cards did not protect his action. You held onto your hand until the dealer pushed you the pot. I want players to be very vigilant about protecting their hand, but at some point they have to give the cards to the dealer to play the next hand.

I'm a bit confused.

This happened to "someone I know" and yet you then become the BB?

No need for subterfuge, just please state the action a bit more clearly. Thanks.

This of course is correct. You always want to protect yourself from a bad ruling. That is a good point that since the OP pointed out that this player is always hiding his cards, making sure his cards are in the muck would give you an additional level of protection.

This could easily go either way. But if villain hid his cards and said nothing until after 2 other people had folded, dealer had mucked the board, and had also pushed the pot, I would tend to rule that villain's hand was dead, not live.

5 way limp pot.
...
1. Bet.
2. Fold.
3. Fold.
4. Fold.
5. .........................................

Dealer begins to muck board.

"What about that angle shooter Tom in Seat 3?"

Maybe the bettor should pay attention too.

Also, exactly what was the Floor told? Really. Still a lousy ruling, but maybe more understandable if the Dealer didn't explain the situation or the Floor did not understand.

Maybe bet, 3 turbo folds and an insta-push-the-pot by the dealer (I have 2 San Jose dealers in mind) ?

Bummer situation. Obviously not the ruling you wanted.

A couple thoughts...

If you know he is "always" hiding cards, and he is in the pot with you, better be careful next time.

Why the "this happened to someone I know" and then you become the subject of the post?

my friend sent me an email, and I quoted the text of his email. I edited one line,: the flop being xyz and x turn.

I agree.

Plus:

The player who was pushed the pot should keep the pot.

Any chance the dealer or floor know the other guys( Mr hidem) first and last name and his dogs name? Not accusin' , just sayin!

everyone says to protect your hand until the dealer pushes the pot. well, the pot was pushed........

I agree the ruling was bad. Floor should have the balls to say "Sorry sir if you don't protect your action your hand is dead". Specially if the guy does it habitually as seems to be the case.

If I'm Hero and the ruling goes down as in the OP I'm taking to asking the dealer "Did the angleshooter in seat 3 fold?" before I ever pitch my cards again. Depending on how the night is going, the mood of the table and the size of the guy there are some other adjectives I'd swap in from time to time.

I would be pretty mad if I was in your spot. Yes, you need to protect your hand, but as RR said at some point you need to give your cards to the dealer for the next hand to start.

The point where the board has been mucked and the dealer has pushed you the pot is this time. There is just no way that somebody that has been sitting there for AT LEAST 20 seconds while all this is going on should have any claim to the pot.

Could we have protected ourselves better? Sure, we could ask every time if that guy still has cards, but thats annoying and is going to slow the game down. In my mind there's no valid way that this situation comes up where the other guy isn't purely angleshooting. Would be nice to have the floor tell him to **** off.

Oh and if you're a both regs in the room I'd take to greeting him with "Hey it's the guy who likes to hide his cards and then claim the pot. Have you pulled that move yet tonight or should I beware?"

Nothing wrong with calling out an angelshooting dbag and warning the rest of the table.

This.

I saw a similar incident at the WSOP, and floor made it very simple: "Once the pot is pushed, the hand is over". If you notice a guy hiding cards, mention it to the dealer. Dealers HATE when people hide their cards.

I agree, but as can be seen by reading B&M every day, there are many sloppy dealers and floormen out there. Just because the ruling should go a certain way, doesn't mean it will go a certain way.

It'd be nice, but until we have that guarantee in writing, I'm still going to protect myself.

How is it annoying to make sure that everybody has acted on every street during the hands in which you're participating? Why aren't you paying enough attention to the game to at least know who's acted? Don't you care about your money at risk?

If you don't see a bet in front of him, you didn't see him fold, and you can't verify that he doesn't have cards... just ask. It's very easy to do. I manage to do this every street for every hand dealt on the table. You can find a way to do it for the hands you play.

Protect your hand. It's as simple as that. If you rely on others to do it for you, then I guarantee you'll have a problem some day. And when you do, think of me warning you to protect your hand.

Where in Vegas? I have a hard time believing the floor ruled the way it did if action was as OP says. Pot was pushed. Other guy didn't protect his action. No way he gets the pot.

I'd be surprised if OP's friend didn't leave something out or miss-told his story.

A problem with this thread is that it is not first hand information, not really. It's a copy of an e-mail sent to the "OP" who did not witness it.

While I think the "OP" believes it happened the way he reported it, it's always possible that the player it actually happened to didn't report it as accurately as he could have because he was just sharing a bad beat story with a friend.

For all we know, it was Pfap dealing, in the parlor, with the lead pipe.

ETA: That's a joke, I'm positive that Pfap would never allow such a thing to occur.

I hate these threads. I also hate B&M for this reason

Player posts a situation in which they are CLEARLY RIGHT and get screwed and everyone comes up with reasons why the OP was wrong. Protected his hand, but not enough. Made and action when it was his turn, but should have asked the dealer if it was his turn. Things he should have done, but didnt and has now learned his lesson.

From the way the story was told, the floor person was an idiot. What else is there to the story?

Nice! I like it.

Honestly, does the guy need to hold on to his cards, stack the chips from the pot, look around for any other hand(s), and then muck? Pot pushed, game over.

If this was an average to large room in Vegas, then chances are there was a shift manager above that floor person. Not sure I would let that one die.

Its not annoying to pay attention in the hands I am participating. It is annoying to have to waste time at showdown before I give the dealer my cards in order to ensure that no one else has cards.

I am paying attention. but unfortunately, I am human. I get tired. I miss things (especially when people are hiding things from me).

Yes we all need to protect our hands, but at some point the time for protecting our hands needs to end and the time to start moving towards the next hand needs to begin. If we don't allow players to rely on the dealer pushing them the pot, at what point can we safely give the dealer our cards? Are we going to force everybody to hold on to their cards until they have actually physically pulled the pot in and started stacking it? That just seems ridiculous. At some point there needs to be a point beyond which players no longer need to protect their hand. That time always seems to be referenced as "when the dealer mucks the board and pushes you the pot".

Once that starts happening I don't particularly want players to protect their hands, I want them to get rid of their hands so we can play another hand. And if we force players to be absolutely perfect or bear the risk of forfeiting the pot its going to slow the game down as people feel the need to spend time ensuring they in fact won the pot even after the dealer is pushing it to them. Because I can't be totally sure that I didn't miss something.

IMO this is too far to extend the "protect your hand" mantra and any floor that rules the other guy should get the pot is a pretty terrible floor imo. And I know you think we need to act in a way to avoid terrible rulings, but this takes doing so to a level thats actually detrimental to the game. At some point the people running the game need to be accountable to do the things that make the game function. Like awarding the pot to the right player in this situation.

And I don't think the other guy being a known angleshooter should be important to the floor's decision. Maybe its important to put us as players on notice that we need to be more careful, but like I said I think being anymore careful than we already are just slows the game down. But angleshooter or not, this guy had plenty of time to say that he still had cards which he failed to do.

All this "dealer v. player" rhetoric in the threads the last few days is not productive imo. Yes. You keep track of the action. That is your job.

I don't come to the casino as a job. I come because its fun. As such I am sometimes distracted/tired/whatever and miss things.

When I miss things its fair to count them against me if they cause me to make some kind of mistake. Its not particularly fair to hold them against me when I am doing the exact correct procedural thing (waiting for the dealer to push me the pot and then giving him my cards).

What you suggest I have to do before I collect a pot is take the time to look/ask if each player has cards before I accept the pot. This is a pain in the ass and there's no real reason for it. The pot is over. I have done everything you can ask a player to do. To ask for more is just silly and slows the process of starting the next hand for no reason other than to open the player base up to angleshots.

Yeesh, I didn't realize paying attention during a hand was such a controversial suggestion.

Yes, I'd this went down as said, this was a horrible ruling.

You don't want to be the victim of a poor ruling? Then pay attention. If you don't want to pay attention, then you may be the victim of a horrible ruling.

That's all there is to it.

OP: Your friend got ****ed, plain and simple. And everyone who is telling OP to be more careful, protect his hand, etc. OP did all he realistically should ever do, which is receive the pot and return the cards to the dealer. Hopefully he was courageous enough to protest the injustice and appeal to a higher authority. I know if that ruling was made against me, I'd make them take me to court to give up that pot. And banning me from the room wouldn't help, because I would never play in that room again anyway, seeing what kinds of rules were being enforced. Also, I think the relatively low stakes of the game influenced the floor's decision. If it was a bigger game with a lot more money in the pot, the situation might have turned out differently. At the very least there would have been a more in-depth investigation. I see it all the time; the same people who treat me like **** when I'm playing 10/20 address me like a king when I'm playing 100/200.

Incidentally, just the other day a similar situation occurred. There was a fairly large heads up pot being contested which eventually went to showdown. As the dealer is pushing the pot, I notice one player who had been dozing off periodically, and was assumed to have already folded, still had his cards under his bearlike paws. Winning player had AA on board of 8844x. Hard to believe that sleeping player would be awarded the pot if he somehow woke up to find an 8 or 4 in his hand...but who knows, apparently some floor people would award him the pot...