1/2 NL Hold em. Two players see the flop, turn and river.

Player A shows Q-10 for a Queen high

Player B shows a Jack for a pair of Jacks. His other card was face down under the jack. He pushed the hand forward and waited to be awarded the pot.

Except he wasnt given the pot. The dealer mucked his hand, awarded the pot to player A and told Player B his hand was dead because he didn't show both hole cards.

The floor was called and made their decision. What was it ?

YOU MAKE THE CALL

Dealer should probably give player b the chance to show both cards by warning him it'll be mucked if he doesn't. However as player b didn't table both cards cannot see the floor overturning the decision as dealer is in his rights to do so

Gotta show both cards brotha, can't play that "don't wanna show my kicker cause I'm ashamed of it" bullshit. Dealer should tell the guy that he needs to show both to be awarded the pot, but if the guy still insists on leaving a card face down the dealer has no right to turn that card face up for him. His hand is mucked, other dude wins the pot.

Moving this to the rules forum, as it's not a strategy question. Answer you're going to get is mostly going to be, "depends on house rules."

House rules apply. If both cards have to be shown, then both cards have to be shown. We don't know the back story. If the player has been told multiple times to show both cards and has repeatedly refused or ignored the request, I can see why his hand was mucked. It is a bad rule, but some rooms insist on having bad rules.

While always possible that the dealer decided to screw over a noobish player, most dealers will prompt a player to show both cards if necessary and explain why.

https://www.pokertda.com/view-poker-tda-rules/

"Pots / Showdown

12: Declarations. Cards Speak at Showdown

Cards speak to determine the winner. Verbal declarations of hand value are not binding at showdown but deliberately miscalling a hand may be penalized. Dealers should read and announce hand values at showdown. Any player, in the hand or not, SHOULD SPEAK UP if he or she thinks a mistake is made in reading hands or calculating and awarding the pot.

13: Tabling Cards & Killing Winning Hand

A: Proper tabling is both 1) turning all cards face-up on the table and 2) allowing the dealer and players to read the hand clearly. “All cards” means both hole cards in hold 'em, all 4 hole cards in Omaha, all 7 cards in 7-stud, etc.

B: At showdown, players must protect their hands while waiting for cards to be read (See also Rule 65). Players who donÂ’t fully table all cards, then muck thinking theyÂ’ve won, do so at their own risk. If a hand is not 100% retrievable and identifiable and the TD rules it was NOT clearly read, the player has no claim to the pot. The TDs decision on whether a hand was SUFFICIENTLY tabled is final.

C: Dealers CANNOT kill a properly tabled hand that was obviously the winner.

14: Live Cards at Showdown

Discarding non-tabled cards face down does not automatically kill them; players may change their minds and table cards that remain 100% identifiable and retrievable. Cards are killed by the dealer when pushed into the muck or otherwise rendered irretrievable and unidentifiable.

15: Showdown and Discarding Irregularities

A: If a player tables ONE CARD that would make a winning hand, the dealer should advise the player to table all cards. If the player refuses, the floor should be called.

B: If a player bets then discard thinking he or she has won (forgetting another player is still in the hand), the dealer should hold the cards and call the floor (a Rule 58 exception). If cards are mucked and not retrievable and identifiable to 100% certainty, the player is out and not entitled to a refund of called bets. If cards are mucked and the player initiated a bet or raise not yet called, the uncalled amount will be returned."

The "HOW" it happened is irrelevant, this is a "SHOWDOWN" and the rules above MUST be followed.

During the hand described all the following errors/opportunities occurred:

- PLAYER MUST Speak up and prevent the dealer muck the winning hand
- DEALER MUST request to ALL players to tabled the cards, the dealer CANNOT (NEVER, under no circumstances) decide if the player muck on purpose or by mistake and even less decide the pot winner (DEALER NEVER decide the winner at showdown CARDS SPEAK is a basic principle), so the dealer MUST allowed the cards to speak.

- 15. A Speaks by itself
- Cards Speak, The "J" was tabled therefore speak by itself so the kicker is 100% irrelevant. by definition ""

The Tabling is NOT optional at Showdown, people should stop thinking that is OK to profit out showdown etiquette errors by players or dealers whenever the hand can be identified the pot MUST be awarded to the winning hand.

The decision is easy, the winning hand was "SUFFICIENTLY " tabled. the POT goes to player B, never to player A.

Players and dealers shall be reminded of their duties at the table.

This is simply not true. Most rooms don't use TDA for cash games. Further, if the hand is now irretrievably mucked, much of what you posted is not relevant.

Do I agree that the dealer should tell the player "please show two cards or muck your hand?" Absolutely. Does that mean that there is any such thing as "sufficiently tabled" that is different from the "properly tabled" referenced in the TDA rules? No. Do TDA rules even apply here? Probably not.

Maybe at your personal home cash game where you decide to strictly follow TDA rules without any other considerations. Other than that, house rules apply.

Certainly not all cash games follow TDA rules. And even then it’s often not black and white.
Your hand consists of two cards. Calling one of them “irrelevant” because it doesn’t play is a stretch. Would you change your mind if you knew the second card was a wild card or another J of the same suit?

Unless there’s some history here with the player refusing to table his hand, the issue is on the dealer. He should let the player know he needs to table both cards to win the hand. Under no circumstance should he just muck the hand.

Without any prior incident, I am fine with floor invoking a “best interest for the game” ruling to award the pot to player B.

What if the card shown was a J and the other card was also a J?

I'm awarding the pot to the player with the Q high. Then I'm pulling the dealer aside when he leaves the table to find out what's going on. Did the dealer give the player with the J an opportunity to table both cards? Did he ask the player what his intention was? The dealer should ask him, "are you folding your hand?" After all of this, if the player still refuses to show both cards then I'm fine with the actions taken by the dealer.

But even if the dealer never gave the player an opportunity to fix the situation himself, I'm still awarding the pot to the Q high. Whether or not the dealer gets a warning, a suspension, or whatever, has nothing to do with the fact that only one player properly tabled his hand.

Basically covered above. Dealer should do a better job of dealing with this issue, should ask "are you folding" or say "takes 2 to win". If player refuses or seems confused, call the floor. Mucking this hand, especially at 1/2, needs some retraining.

Once it happens, I wouldn't fault a floor for giving the pot to the Q hi hand, since it was the only one properly tabled. However, at a 1/2 game, with a player who hasn't been warned to table both already, I am gong to use Rule 1 to award the pot to the Jx hqnd, and give him a stern warning that he could have lost the hand, and will if it happens again. That will be enough to teach most home game guys about casino rules.

There is only one J on each deck as far as I recall, so that scenario is pretty much impossible.

How come would be another J:spades:? Guys there is really just one Jack of each suit per deck.

The first part is correct.

Second part: NO half-trained floor, would ever under no circumstances award the pot to player A.

TDA or not, dealers nor floor staff decide winners, CARDS do (CARDS SPEAK is basic poker principle).

The only error here was the lack of etiquette from anyone else at the table (Specially player A.... if insisted on receiving the pot), and the dealer that declared a hand with cards not fully tabled.

As per the floor, does not matter how many times the same scenario happens, the best they can do is instruct the dealer to refrain declaring any winner until all cards are properly tabled. Players will make sure to put the pressure avoiding delays.

Finally, my take of the whole thing was a poorly trained dealer that wanted to give a lesson to player B and play the smartass.

Player A, B, Dealers and the rest of the players.

I insisted this multiple times, showdown etiquette errors NEVER should be seen as a way to make a profit

How do you know that, did you check the deck before or during the hand?

I might not like it, but I would estimate the majority of floors in US card rooms would award the pot to player A.

That's not an etiquette error. No idea how you come up with that. Player B did not table his hand.

This is from the High Roller cash game at Aria with top pros playing. If it can happen here, it can happen anywhere.

Just ask the dealer: "Scramble all the cards face-up and identified all the 4 jacks"

I'm speechless.

Couldn't help it

Of course.

Just ask the OP what happened in reality, bet you $20 that pot went to player B

Just to clarify my own position, I support the dealer clarifying action before mucking. That's the procedure at our room. But it wasnt always that way. There was a time where players were expected to know the rules and if they pushed their cards forward with one or both face down, we were to immediately muck it. Lots of people muck while showing one card, to get sympathy for what a big fold they are making, or how they got sucked out on. If both cards aren't tabled, the dealer doesnt even read a single up card to determine if it would be a winner or not. So it's on the player to protect his cards.

But over time many rules have been loosened up to be more forgiving to beginner players. Dealers have been given more leeway to intervene to clarify action. But as I said, it definitely wasnt always like this, and still varies from room to room.

Well, it's completely up to the floor. But I can tell you that I have seen a $4000 pot in plo be given to the losing player bc the winning player only showed his two winning cards and tossed the other two directly into the muck. The other player correctly argued that all 4 cards must be shown, and the floor agreed. Either its a rule you have to table all cards or it isnt.

Pietro, the point isn't what did happen. The point is your certainty, even after being told by multiple experienced floors ITT that it could go either way, depending on several factors.

Personally, if there is no more to this story, I'd prefer to see player B get the pot and a warning. But if he'd already had warnings, or if the dealer did say something about tabling both cards, I'm fine with it going to player A.

And there is no way that the floor or dealer's job is to spread the deck to make sure B wasn't hiding a card that indicated a fouled deck. That is part of the "two to win" rule. The other is that the info on what he was playing is part of the price of winning at showdown.

Evidently this is a must show two cards room. Most are but not all.

Since it is must show two the hand was never prope4ly tabled. This gets mucked and does not win. Depending on other factors, I could see the floor invoking rule #1, giving jacks the pot with a warning this is one time only.

Personally I believe dealer should announce the must show both to win rule before mucking the hand. But some likely to say this violates OPTAH. If the player was new he should be told the rule. But if it was a reg just being a **** the muck away as he deserves it.