This happened yesterday at a 1-3NL table. Villain is small blind, I’m in the cutoff and third guy is on the button. Probably worth noting Villain practically lives at the casino and bets big . He usually plays 3-5 and only plays 1-3 while waiting for a 3-5 table to open. I usually play 1-3 once a week. I’m having a bad day and down to my last $150 before heading home. I’m dealt KJ offsuit. Three people limp and I raise to $15. The button and villain call, everyone else folds. Pot $58. Flop is KJx, rainbow, x is small. Hot damn, I flopped top two pair.

Villain checks, I check intending to check-raise if button bets, the dealer and I thought the button checked behind so the dealer puts out the turn, a 5H making the board KJ5x complete rainbow. The villain checks, I shove my $135, button folds, and THEN the villain tells the dealer he misdealt the turn because the cutoff hadn’t acted after the flop. WTF? The dealer calls the floor who listens to the villain’s story, the button guy says he hadn’t checked yet but was going to. The button’s cards are not retrievable from the muck. The floor rules that a new turn card must be dealt. The new turn card makes two clubs on the board. The villain calls my all in, hits his club flush draw, I lose.

The button indeed had not acted yet after the flop, and the dealer only thought he’d checked. But the villain didn’t squawk about the turn until after he had checked and I shoved. I thought the action after the dealer dealt the original turn meant the 5H should have stayed. Was this ruling correct or was I screwed in favor of the regular?

If your account is accurate it's a bad ruling.

But does villian say he checked or is it possible the floor thinks you acted out of turn? I still don't like the ruling but it explains a bit.

Awful ruling, by the book rule is action must be defended before either 3 following actions or 2 actions of money going into the pot (bet or raise). Not sure if the dealer patting the table and putting the turn out counts as an action, but regardless there was a check, bet, and fold before anything was disputed, too late.

And even considering all of that, if the floor were to use discretion, the button says he intended to check flop anyways, and folded to your bet on the turn.. he clearly had no interest in the hand. The fact that you said the villain in SB is basically furniture in the room, this looks to be a case of an incompetent floor ruling in favor of the regular as to not wanting to upset him or because he's a good tipper, whatever the case may be.

Sounds like a bad ruling because of "substantial action" on the Turn ... if Villian had spoken up before any action on the Turn, I think the ruling would have been proper.

Bad ruling. My guess is floor only heard premature turn and either didn't listen carefully enough to the rest of the story or wasn't told the rest.

Tough spot for you because if you fight too hard to keep the turn you're giving up the strength of your hand.

This dealer is particularly fast to act, but both the dealer and I thought the villain had checked before my bet. I was flabbergasted and confused when he suddenly said the turn was dealt prematurely and a new turn card was needed. The floor came over and greeted the villain by name. I don't think she actually asked him if he had indeed checked before my bet. She just listened to him, and the dealer, then made her ruling. She didn't explicitly say that I'd bet out of turn. I doubt very much that this guy would have complained if the original turn had given him his flush draw.

I wonder what the floor would have ruled if I had tried to take back my bet when she ruled that a new turn was needed. I was furious when I left the casino because I felt the ruling cost me about $300, but meh, I'll live.

Ruling that a new turn card was needed AND forcing your action to stay is absolute malpractice and makes the ruling 10x worse. Once the floor decides a new turn card is needed, action on the premature turn should be taken back.

In fairness to the floor, I didn't try to take back my bet so she didn't force me to leave it in.

She should have addressed it anyway

I've bolded the important part. If that is true, then there is zero reason to deal a new turn card. You don't get to check and then see your opponent's action before deciding to bring this up. You either bring it up right away or you are accepting the action as is.

There is basically the same spot in another fresh thread today where there was an extra burn card put down going to the next street ...

There is a small crack in the door where if V (or really anyone at the table) 'suddenly' realizes the error after V checks, but once you have a check and a bet out there we shouldn't put the horse back in the barn for sure.

Obviously you want this guy calling your bet offering only 1.5 to 1 on his draw ... you just don't want him to hit! It's very possible that the Floor didn't follow the story all the way through and thus didn't address the status of your all-in. It's good that you aren't all worked up about it, I usually just try to check these hands down after something like this happens because the karma seems to go the other way. GL

PS .. How did they handle the new Turn card? Was it the 'real' River with the pre-exposed card going back in for a shuffle? Or some other method?

Frankly, nothing like this ever happened to me before and I was totally confused and unfortunately did not press my case that the turn should stay. I honestly don't know what the proper procedure would have been if the premature turn had been noted before any action had taken place. The floor only seemed interested in what the very regular villain had to say. I do remember when she ruled for a new turn card that the villain explicitly did not want the five put back in the deck and shuffled so it might turn up again. I'm sure the 5H was put with the other burn cards and the remaining cards shuffled and a new turn and river dealt.

What I think (pure speculation) is that the villain is a dishonest jerk who initially didn't care that he thought the turn was dealt prematurely. The 5H didn't help him so he checked, but when I shoved and the button folded he thought the 5 gave me a set, and since he had no draw, he pulled a fast one to get the 5 discarded. It worked. When I've been at a table with him before, he always struck me as being more than a little bit shifty and I was glad when he left to go play higher stakes.

Like I said, I was furious at the time and two days later I still stew a little when I think about it, but consider it a lesson learned. One lesson learned was that I need to learn the rules about what should happen in that situation, and watch much more carefully, particularly when at a table with that particular regular.

terrible ruling

If it was a simple premature turn, shuffling the card back into the deck and then dealing a new card is completely standard.

What is completely irregular is
1. Allowing villain to check (if it happened), then call for a floor after you acted
2. Keeping the premature card out of the reshuffled stub
3. Forcing you to keep your bet out there

Had the villain checked, and then pulled this crap, I would have no problem calling him a cheater to his face, loud enough to draw attention from other tables. Then I would calmly rack up, ask for the room manager, and leave, explaining why I would never be back, and who exactly was involved. Do all this calmly. Everyone easily dismisses an angry sore loser, but if you are very reasonable and rational, and do appear to be trying to get something out of it, the floor manager will take you more seriously.

Yes, rooms cater to regs, but they also know that if they get the reputation for being biased against new players, they will not survive.

I'm a big fan of the loudly but calmly call the guy cheat and talk to the room manager plan.

Actually while I am certain there is some room somewhere that would do this it is not standard. Standard would be to pull the premature card aside, complete the action, burn and put up the card which would have bene the river as the new turn. Only before dealing a river would reshuffle the the premature card back into the stub

While I agree with your assessment of being taken more seriously by management when you remain calm ..... that is inconsistent with loudly calling your opponent a cheater.

Well, 1) I am assuming that what happens at the table and your conversation with the room manager are two seperate conversations, and 2) it is possible to be loud and claer without being angry and animated. I would struggle with this, as I get a little, errr, animated during a confrontation, but I would certainly try to stay cool while still making sure all nearby tables knew exactly who had done what.

Regarding standard practice, I thought the crad was shuffled in immediately in order not to give away undue information regarding the turn card. I guess this is not standard?

The card would be shuffled in right away if it was a premature river card. When it is the turn that is premature, we use the card that would have been the river as the new turn and then shuffle the premature card back into the stub before dealing the new river.

Thanks for the info. Good to know

which stupid poker room was this

The ruling got villain to call a shove with one card coming to a flush draw! Sweet! Congratulations.