I wanted to poll the forum to see what others think about this situation that came up:

I was playing 5/5 PLO at my local casino recently and a minor situation came up (which also happens quite freqently, I have observed):

Pot got fairly big postflop with a few pot sized bets and effectively put most players all in if they elected to call.

UTG+1 makes pot-sized bet, UTG+2 re-pots it, UTG+3 folds, UTG+4 tanks then proceeds to show his hand to UTG+3 (who had already folded) to show him the dilemma he was facing. I was UTG+5 and had yet to act. I voiced that showing another player who has seen a hand with discarded cards is not really ethical. In an extreme situation, they could be colluding and give each other signals that key cards were already folded. More commonly, players may give off unintentional tells that might affect the player calling. I still was yet to act behind these players. The two players got very upset that I would make this assumption and it turned into a bit of a scene with the floor being called over. I explained that I didn't really think they were colluding, but it created an opportunity for unfairness and really wasn't an ethical thing to do.

I know it's a bit of a minor issue, but I see players show cards to their neighbors at the table all the time. This gives information to the players they show them to that is not available to the rest of the table.

Is there a legitimate complaint about this, or am I just splitting hairs?

Thanks for your input.

It is legitimate but very minor in most cases. PLO with its extra cards is probably the case that is most major, though. Still, perhaps mention it if a specific pair seems to be doing it too often, but then let it go.

As a floor, I will probably warn players not to do it with live hands, and that SOSA will apply, and then leave without doing anything more.

It's both: you have a legitimate complaint and you're splitting hairs.

You have a legitimate complaint because:
--> you're not supposed to show your hand to other players;
--> it slows down the game;
--> it gives other players information in an unbalanced manner;
--> it's annoying for everyone not being shown the hand (and sometimes for the person being shown the hand); and
--> there is a (negligible) chance that there's collusion/cheating going on.

You are splitting hairs because:
--> it usually keeps the atmosphere at the table light and collegial;
--> it doesn't usually extend the hand by more than five seconds;
--> it's overwhelmingly likely that no collusion/cheating is happening; and
--> once someone takes offense--rightly or wrongly--for having a rule enforced against them, it usually significantly worsens the atmosphere at the table.

Just like many other things, I personally take into account that person's totality of contributions to the table before asking for a rule like this to be enforced against him/her. Not too long ago, I had some jackoff old white guy who thought he was god's gift to poker because he was able to lay down a pair or a missed draw or whatever. He was talking himself up too, which was awkward for everyone. And he was showing his two neighbors what he was folding as he was talking about it. They were being polite about it, but you could tell they were feeling awkward/annoyed by it and the old man was not picking up on those social cues.

So about the fourth or fifth time he did this, I said to the dealer, "Dealer, I'd like to see what he showed the other players please." The old man nearly lost his mind, but I simply responded with, "I don't mind you showing us. I just couldn't see them from over here." He stopped after that.

If it were a friendly whale and I didn't think my opponents were getting a huge informational advantage from it, I'd let it go every time. Pick your battles.

The unspoken rule on this IME is that if you show your hand to your neighbor (who's already out of the hand), you're probably going to fold. If you do, no big deal. If you don't, neighbor had better keep his mouth shut and not react. If he behaves, it's still not good etiquette, but generally is tolerated. If he reacts or says anything, you have a right to complain.

I think it's a bad idea to use the word "unethical" to describe someone's actions at a table. No way does someone take that well.

I would probably talk to the floor away from the table if it was innocent. Ask him to keep an eye out for it and say something to them if he sees it.

Call the floor immediately if they are giving each other advise or help.

And more particularly it's a bad idea to use the word unethical when by your own admission you don't think the player is cheating or colluding.

Basically you are calling another player a cheater when you don't think he is cheating ... How can that possibly be a good idea?

For all of these reasons I do not allow players in my room to show their hand to anyone. All it does is cause problems. Very small, yet annoying problems. It's just easier to have everyone keep their cards to themselves. The "no sweat" rule has helped a lot for me. Especially in the early game with all the OMCs that just love love love to show everyone what they're folding or want their neighbors to play along and see how great they play or whatever. PITA.

I can tell from your contributions to this forum that I am going to love playing in your room whenever I get the opportunity to visit.

Would love to have you!

Here is an example from PLO. I have top set. A player bets with an obvious straight. A third player shows his buddy middle set before mucking. I know that he would only show a strong hand where he is making a big laydown and correctly deduce that he just folded some of my outs and I no longer have the correct odds to draw, so I fold.

Or, on the river, I have a bluff catcher, and a player shows another player that he missed and he would only do that if he had a combo draw with a lot of outs. That takes away a lot of the combinations that the bettor could be bluffing with, making it more likely that he is betting for value, and I fold.

I might get value from a situation like this once a month.

While I don't support showing cards I think this is a weak argument. While a player may have a tell about when they show cards .... I have seen plenty of players who show whenever they have a neighbor who will look.

But more importantly .... The nature of a tell like this has nothing inherently to do with showing the cards. You might pick up the same type of information by a player who is obviously going to fold but does the whole hem and haw and reluctantly fold routine. If your argument is valid then it should also be illegal to hem and haw before folding because of the tells it gives other players.

I can sometimes tell when a player is making a big laydown when he shows his neighbor and his neighbor reacts with surprise that he is folding.

There could be plenty of weak arguments that are not compelling on their own, but add up to something significant as a bundle, just like having a backdoor draw may not be much, but having multiple backdoor draws or other less obvious outs may change a hand from a fold to a call.

The thing to remember about poker is that it is an amoral game. There are no "ethical" standard with which to judge people. If the rule is, like in Suit's room, that you can't show people, then you have the right to challenge it. Whether you should challenge it or not is strictly a business decision. As many others have said, it is often a bad business decision to do so.

Getting angry about it is a form of tilt, which you should be working on removing from your game.

I disagree with the notion that their is no ethical standard by which to judge people. In this case I do not think the transgression is an ethical transgression but that is not to say the game is without ethical standards.

It's a touchy situation, as it's usually done with no intent of collusion. I agree it shouldn't be done, but it's a very common occurrence and I usually won't say anything unless I see the player and his neighbor talking after the hand has been showed to said neighbor.

I can't even begin to count how many times a player has shown me his hand for no reason. Sometimes it's a neighbor I don't have history with and haven't really been chatting with either, and he just decides for some reason he's going to have me sweat along with him. I really don't like it because it makes me feel like I have to put on my poker face when I'm not even in the hand. For whatever reason, some players just like to show their hands to their neighbor.

This behavioural breach is too minor for me to attempt to correct. It ranks below enforcing string bets and English at the table in my hierarchy.

Imagine you are visiting a room you never played in before. The majority of the table is obviously regs by the way they are interacting with each other. Now every time you get in a hand with a few of them, they are showing their neighbor (that doesn't have cards) their hand. You can see both of their lips moving, but can't hear what they're saying. Do you feel comfortable staying and playing in that game?

Example: Board is K10682

You have J9 and have been firing at every street. Now on the river your opponent is still showing his cards to his buddy and decides to call your bet with QK. Are you not left wondering if his buddy whispered that he folded the A? You should be. As a room manager, that is the exact reason I don't allow it. I don't want new players coming in and feeling like there is shady **** going on here and not coming back or worse telling everyone they talk to that it is a shady place.

Example: Board is 7794K rainbow.

You made a bluff on the river and your opponent is showing his buddy his hand again. He has 78 and doesn't want to call hoping for a chop but after a tank and some lips moving he calls. Did his buddy whisper that he folded the other 7? Did he whisper "you got it". Was his lips just moving because he was silently singing along with that song in his head? Maybe you didn't see his lips move at all or weren't watching. Do you wonder if he somehow helped his buddy?

If this keeps happening over and over, at some point you are just going to leave or call them out. Calling them out probably has no effect so then you leave anyway.

Suit, I'm curious as to how you enforce this in your room. It seems like in theory it's a great idea but hard to put into practice.

And where is your room (if I'm ever in the area)?

It's one of those things you have to be very on top of. At first it was a pain but after awhile everyone got used to it. I instructed the dealers to be telling players about the rule every single time they saw it happen, no exceptions. There were a couple write ups for dealers that I saw letting it slide, but setting that example got everyone on board. Being nice about it and explaining the rule to the players went along way in the beginning. Certainly not just barking at players that show their cards. After awhile it just became the norm, with the exception of that middle period where the regs started trying to weasel around it by holding their cards in a way that their neighbor could see but not being obvious about it. We just told them again that they cannot show their cards and that includes holding them so someone else "could" see them.

Check your PM.