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Old 05-12-2020, 11:51 AM   #1
DEKE01
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Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

I was playing in a Florida card room, 2/5 with about $2K in my stack. A very nice semi reg guy sat to my right and as the evening wore on, he got more and more drunk, very out of character for him. He was routinely exposing his cards, 50%+ of the time. He played the majority of hands, always opening to 6 BB. He threw away bottom 20% range, 73o, but led out with any paint, Q3o.

I played one hand, T9s, called his $200 post flop bet because I had top pair of 9s, and he Cbet $100 - 200 every flop. I thought I was trapping him. Turn is a Q, he double checks his hole and accidentally shows me AQ. I fold to his $500 turn bet. Grrrrr

Later I got that $200 back from him when I flopped top pair and raised his probable bluff. I quit after that simply because I had run out of time, but I hated to leave because I knew this guy was going to give up his $1500 stack.

So am I a scumbag or what? I've told folks on prior occasions to protect their hands. I told him earlier in the day, but didn't repeat the warning as he got more and more wasted. What would you do? What should I have done?

He is a semi regular and I will play with him again...assuming of course that live poker returns one day. I've seen him play wild frequently so it was good to get in his head, but that is the first time I've ever seen him that drunk.
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Old 05-12-2020, 11:54 AM   #2
Garick
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Re: He's a drunk maniac, I'm a scumbag?

Moving this one to the Casino and Cardroom Poker forum, as they do rules and etiquette. This forum is for strategy.

That said, I'm an advocate of warn once for exposed cards.
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:04 PM   #3
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

I personally would warn twice, but don't fault a guy for 'warn once, now it's on you' approach.

There are circumstances where I would let the floor know, away from the table, that a semi-reg is not able to protect himself.
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Old 05-12-2020, 12:22 PM   #4
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Everyone gets at least once. The worse they are / better they are for the game, the more reminders they get.
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Old 05-12-2020, 02:51 PM   #5
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

If a player is exposing his hand >50% of the time, the dealer should notice that pretty quickly and tell the player to be more careful. If it keeps happening, it’s time for the dealer to call the floor.
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Old 05-12-2020, 07:14 PM   #6
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

IMO unless every time you were heads up, then yes you were a “scum bag”. That term might be a little harsh. I don’t have any propblem with taking advantage of his self imposed deficiency if you gave one or two heads up. But having and using information not available to other players is unfair to them through no fault of there’s. They have no way to defend themselves from your advantage.

Personally I don’t have a limit on how often I will warn them. I will also share the fact that I saw their hand with the rest of the table. Heck I have even occasionally folded even though I was ahead of the flasher to avoid using such information in a multi-way pot.
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Old 05-12-2020, 08:06 PM   #7
DEKE01
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Fair enough, Fore. I have stopped action preciously when I had seen cards. The dealer had me announce the cards, verified the player's cards, and then showed them to the table. In that case, it was enough to get the card exposer to take precautions.

I did the same thing in my early days of casino play and it wasn't well received. A player had opened the pot before the action got to me pre. There was a lot of anger at the table I didn't understand. When I folded, even more anger. I learned my lesson to keep my mouth shut if I wasn't going to be in the hand. It turned out that one of the players who was angry at me had KK, IIRC, and rightly felt I had killed his action. Lesson learned.

It's been a few months since the OP drunk story, but I don't recall being multi way when I knew his cards. Not sure. I know the big hands where I won or lost what I felt like was significant money, we were HU.
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Old 05-13-2020, 06:35 AM   #8
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

There are three schools of thought on this. The first is that you warn the other player as often as they flash their cards. The second is that you warn once (or a limited number of times) and let it go. The third is that you say nothing and take advantage of it.

Recreational players tend to say 1 or 2 and pros tend to say 2 or 3. There's no absolute right or wrong answer. I generally do 2, but understand the decision making process for any answer someone goes with.
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Old 05-13-2020, 11:36 AM   #9
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Here's another story where I take advantage of a drunk. Harrah's, AC, about 10 - 15 years ago.

A drunk is on my left. I've played with him once before, he was drunk then too. The first time he called the floor on me because I was looking at him wrong, but mostly because I had felted him. I was seat 2, drunk was seat 7, so we couldn't help make eye contact on occasion and it really POed him. He got more abusive and was finally kicked out. He seemingly didn't remember me from that first encounter.

On the second encounter I tell the table he's exposing his cards. The player on his other side says the same thing but basically tells me to shut up. The drunk is obviously bluffing a lot so I'm waiting for an opportunity. The drunk reveals 62o as soon as the cards are dealt and grabs chips. When the action gets to me, I peak at 72o and call.

Drunk raises big, 8 or 10 BB, everyone folds, I call. We both flop a pair of 2s, Drunk bets all streets, I call each time and when I call his river bet, I announce his cards, show that my 7 plays, and tell him that I had already warned him about exposing his cards. Most of the the table was ROFL, a couple of players were angry I was filleting the fish. A couple heaped scorn upon me for not raising the river. Drunk was of course angry and abusive, and soon kicked out, at which time more scorn was sent my way for chasing him off.

I didn't feel bad about taking advantage of a random stranger in AC casino. When the event happened in my local card room with a nice guy and semi reg, I felt like I had violated my principles even though I had not really profited from the situation.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:23 PM   #10
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

I'm glad I read Fore's comment twice ... IMO there are two issues here ... and they really should coincide with each other.

1) Deciding whether or not, and how much/often, to inform/warn the 'showing' Player
2) Keeping the game fair to all the Players

Where I tend to dig in here is 'when' do you 'take action' .. and this goes back to the Deal as well as far as I'm concerned.

IMO a Player shouldn't speak out until action is on them ... and they have decided to remain in the hand. This would also apply to anything they 'may' have seen during the Deal.

IF a Player is going to remain in the hand and action is on them (and it's multi-way) then I feel they have an obligation to inform the table what 'they think' they saw before completing their action. There's no reason to tell the table immediately or if they drop out of the hand since it doesn't put any of the other Players at a disadvantage GOING FORWARD. I agree that a Player can, and should, take advantage of any 'non normal' information that goes into their decision making ... but I see no reason to inform the rest of the table unless said Player is going to continue.

Obv I think that between hands you should inform the Player that they need to be more careful (How often = ??) and at least try to refrain from 'overly' trying to gain this information. We have a Player who had a stroke and only has use of one arm. He needs to lift each card separately and does so 'every' time he needs to act while action is on him. EVERYONE knows he exposes his cards and thus at least attempt not to look at the cards when action is pending. We usually encourage this Player to stay away from the 4-6 seats since the other seats have a bit of an angle to the Players on either side. (Yes, a bit of expanding the topic here .. but it's tied in below)

To get back to the scumbag comment ... Each Player needs to determine where they stand with ethics and fairness. There's nothing in the 2019 TDA that directly notes what a Player's responsibility is nor the procedure that a Dealer should take if a spot like this comes up. Not sure if it's ever been on topic at a TDA either.

Is there a difference between taking advantage of the information and 'actively' seeking out the information? YES ... I think TDs/Floors are in a tough spot ... Is it fair to tell a 'next to act' Player that they can't look at another Player because they consistently fail to protect their hole cards? NO ...

Should a Player be more or less inclined during cash v tournament? Should enforcement?

Now to answer the scumbag comment ... Only you can determine if you are a scumbag or not ... right up to the point where someone else catches you, then the rest of the table/Dealer/Floor will determine how much of a scumbag you are (and will remain so for quite a while in that room). GL

PS ... There's probably a difference of opinion between a stroke victim and a drunk, but should there be? And how fast did another Player jump into your seat when you got up to leave?

Last edited by answer20; 05-13-2020 at 12:37 PM.
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Old 05-13-2020, 12:24 PM   #11
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Lucky run out on the paired board above the 6, but also with 2 cards below a 6. But cool story.
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Old 05-13-2020, 07:48 PM   #12
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEKE01 View Post
Fair enough, Fore. I have stopped action preciously when I had seen cards. The dealer had me announce the cards, verified the player's cards, and then showed them to the table. In that case, it was enough to get the card exposer to take precautions.

I did the same thing in my early days of casino play and it wasn't well received. A player had opened the pot before the action got to me pre. There was a lot of anger at the table I didn't understand. When I folded, even more anger. I learned my lesson to keep my mouth shut if I wasn't going to be in the hand. It turned out that one of the players who was angry at me had KK, IIRC, and rightly felt I had killed his action. Lesson learned.

It's been a few months since the OP drunk story, but I don't recall being multi way when I knew his cards. Not sure. I know the big hands where I won or lost what I felt like was significant money, we were HU.
You did say he was doing it over half the time so if you were ever acting in early position it was multi-way. Even a limp in that case is acting with knowledge others don’t have. Some would say even folding would count.

Consider flasher has pocket aces and you have kings. He bets, you fold where you normally would have raised and now someone later to act has AK. Is he disadvantaged from what you knew and caused you to fold? Would he have folded to a raise and reraise?

Much more subtle and more debateable. But announcing you know his hand and folding meh. Not sure I would go that far.
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Old 05-14-2020, 12:37 PM   #13
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEKE01 View Post
Here's another story where I take advantage of a drunk. Harrah's, AC, about 10 - 15 years ago.

A drunk is on my left. I've played with him once before, he was drunk then too. The first time he called the floor on me because I was looking at him wrong, but mostly because I had felted him. I was seat 2, drunk was seat 7, so we couldn't help make eye contact on occasion and it really POed him. He got more abusive and was finally kicked out. He seemingly didn't remember me from that first encounter.

On the second encounter I tell the table he's exposing his cards. The player on his other side says the same thing but basically tells me to shut up. The drunk is obviously bluffing a lot so I'm waiting for an opportunity. The drunk reveals 62o as soon as the cards are dealt and grabs chips. When the action gets to me, I peak at 72o and call.

Drunk raises big, 8 or 10 BB, everyone folds, I call. We both flop a pair of 2s, Drunk bets all streets, I call each time and when I call his river bet, I announce his cards, show that my 7 plays, and tell him that I had already warned him about exposing his cards. Most of the the table was ROFL, a couple of players were angry I was filleting the fish. A couple heaped scorn upon me for not raising the river. Drunk was of course angry and abusive, and soon kicked out, at which time more scorn was sent my way for chasing him off.

I didn't feel bad about taking advantage of a random stranger in AC casino. When the event happened in my local card room with a nice guy and semi reg, I felt like I had violated my principles even though I had not really profited from the situation.
Dude, in that situation you're only 'obligated' to tell him once and I wouldn't say anything after that especially after he's rude to you. The play with your hand was to re-raise and bet the flop if he misses. Other than that, you could tank call the turn and river so hopefully he doesn't get clued in.
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Old 05-14-2020, 12:38 PM   #14
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

My policy is to tell people unless I play them regularly, because they should know better (and looking at your cards without exposing them is the easiest thing in the world). I also doubt that they would tell me if they saw something.
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Old 05-14-2020, 02:03 PM   #15
DEKE01
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

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Dude, in that situation you're only 'obligated' to tell him once and I wouldn't say anything after that especially after he's rude to you. The play with your hand was to re-raise and bet the flop if he misses. Other than that, you could tank call the turn and river so hopefully he doesn't get clued in.
Because the guy was a rude angry drunk, I just wanted to teach him a lesson. I was content to let him do all the damage to himself in order to make a point. He was more angered by the people at the table laughing at him than he was about the money.

But I must admit, throughout the hand I was silently begging the poker gods, "No six, no six, no six."
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Old 05-14-2020, 05:06 PM   #16
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

If you warned him i see no issue. Plus, its really his fault
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:14 AM   #17
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

I have always told every player once in a clear and friendly manner that they are exposing their cards. They always protected them going forwards. But if they hadn't...that's on them in my book.

EDIT

I don't have a firm stance on this. I'm a warn once guy. Some people are a warn never guy, others warn every time guy. You do you.
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Old 05-15-2020, 09:56 AM   #18
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Has anyone ever played in a casino with someone who kept exposing their hand that often for longer than maybe one orbit?

At least in my experience, it's never been very long until the dealer or a player from across the table speaks up about it. If I see a player on the other side of the table expose their cards to another player, I don't say anything the first time but start to look very carefully to see if it happens again. If it does, Im addressing the dealer about it.

It's not like drunk players pick up their cards and wave them around fr everyone to see. Usually they fiddle with them in a way that only the guys next to them have a chance to see those cards. And from across the table it's very easy to follow the wandering eyes of players next to the drunk guy.
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Old 05-15-2020, 10:42 AM   #19
DEKE01
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex View Post
Has anyone ever played in a casino with someone who kept exposing their hand that often for longer than maybe one orbit?
that's exactly what I'm describing in this thread. He had been getting progressively worse over the course of a couple of hours. But having reread my words, one thing I didn't make clear, many times I saw his cards it was post flop and I was already out of the hand. So I had lots of info on what he was generally doing, but that doesn't mean I got to take advantage of the info each hand. And since his usual betting pattern was open for $30 and then c-bet with $100 - $200, I didn't want to get in without a solid made hand of at least top pair, good kicker. Even drunks good dealt good hands occasionally.
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Old 05-15-2020, 10:59 AM   #20
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Re: Drunk maniac exposing cards, I'm a scumbag?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DEKE01 View Post
that's exactly what I'm describing in this thread. He had been getting progressively worse over the course of a couple of hours. But having reread my words, one thing I didn't make clear, many times I saw his cards it was post flop and I was already out of the hand. So I had lots of info on what he was generally doing, but that doesn't mean I got to take advantage of the info each hand. And since his usual betting pattern was open for $30 and then c-bet with $100 - $200, I didn't want to get in without a solid made hand of at least top pair, good kicker. Even drunks good dealt good hands occasionally.
I think you missed Madlex's point (or I missed it). You aren't being unethical to the flasher (assuming that 1. you warned him, and 2. you aren't actually trying to see his cards), you are being unethcial to the other players who do not have the same advantage as you in seeing the player's cards. In cash games this matters only somewhat. In tournament, this matters a lot.
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