In a NL game, four players were contesting a pot after the flop. On one of the streets, Seat 8 checked. Seat 9 picked up chips, started to move them forward, and may or may not have crossed the betting line with them (after the hand there was a disagreement over that point). However, Seat 9 never put his chips on the table, and he checked the action to Seat 1. Seat 1 bet, and then Seat 2 began contemplating his action.

While Seat 2 was thinking, this conversation happened:

Seat 8: Just so you know, Seat 9 was going to bet, but then he checked.

Seat 2: What?

Seat 8: It looks like you're trying to decide what to do. Just so you know, Seat 9 was going to bet, but then pulled his chips back when he saw Seat 1 was going to bet. You may not have seen that.


It seems pretty clear to me that Seat 8 was way out of line and violated the OPTAH rule. Whatever Seat 9 did, it was clearly visible to anyone at the table who was paying attention. Seat 8 had no inside knowledge that affected the integrity of the hand. I think he should have kept quiet.

Any different views?

No, that is a clear OPTAH violation. Dealer should have intervened to stop it. Since he didn't, if called as a floor I would tell the player not to do it again, and penalize him with some time off if he is a repeat offender. Not much to be done about the hand in progress though.

As an aside, whether or not chips brought forward past your card, or past the betting line, constitutes an enforeced bet will vary by room, and at times by floor, table, or context.

Clearly an OPTAH violation. If seat 8 is unhappy with seat 9s action, he should address the dealer. Ideally before seat 1 bets.

Clearly unethical table talk in a multi-way pot. Player should be warned by the floor and if he continues to do things like this he should be asked to leave for the day.

And btw this violates OPTAH even if the offending player is the one acting. It's very common and I wish we could put a stop to it.

Multiway pot.

Player 1 grabs chips, hesitates then checks.

Player 2 announces I saw that you wanted to bet so I'm not going to bet for you as he checks...

Just keep the voices inside your head inside your head

Unfortunately that’s accepted in the majority of home games, at least in my experience. Doesn’t even matter if the stakes are $0.5/$1 or $5/$10.

Therefore, whenever that topic comes up in a casino game and the dealer addresses a player about it, they often don’t even understand what they did wrong. In some cases I find it hard to even blame those people because it might be difficult to understand why saying “$50?” is OK when facing a bet but “$20 on the flop, $50 now?” is not.

It shouldn't be hard to understand. I get that that they may never have thought about it. But once they get told once there really is no excuse ...

Seat 8 could accomplish the same thing by asking if Seat 9's action was a bet and stopping the action there and I do not think that would violate OPTAH at all.

As played, Seat 8 gets a warning and if habitual offender a 24 hour vacation from the poker room.

Thanks for the comments. Not to derail my own thread, but what do you guys do if you're at the table, not involved in the hand, see these kinds of infractions, and note that the dealer is letting it happen?

Is it appropriate to speak up in real time? Wait until after the hand and raise it with the dealer? Talk to the floor about it later for training purposes?

I'm guess what I'm asking what is the responsibility of a player at the table to see that the rules are being observed?

I do nothing if I'm not in the hand. None of my business and it's not like the integrity of the game is in real danger. Same as things like string bets. If all players in the hand are OK with it, that's their prerogative.

If you are bothered by the dealer not doing his job, approach the floor away from the table. Personally, I wouldn't do that unless I was already looking for a reason to complain about the dealer, but if that's something that really upsets you (even though it probably shouldn't) that would be the way to get it out of your system.

I think you are reading this differently. I don't think there is an actual issue about whether his action was a bet. The player is not drawing attention to it to get a ruling.

I read this to be hey I saw you changed your mind and I want to make sure this other player is aware not just that you did it but that I think it's an indication of something.

I agree that not all infractions are worth doing anything all about. I tend to get more bothered by talk about a hand in progress when it occurs either in a multiway pot or by someone not involved in the hand. I don't want a hand that I'm involved in to get messed up because players aren't following the OPTAH rule. So in those situations, I'm more inclined to speak up at some point even if I'm not involved in the hand if the dealer is not handling the situation.

That’s a fair point, getting the dealer/floor involved now might protect you from the same situation happening to you in a later hand.

At the end of the day you have to decide if being “that guy” is worth it. To me personally it’s not, but you have every right to see things differently and act accordingly.

There are different ways of being that guy. One can raise the issue in an effort to prevent it from being a problem later without being a jerk or throwing a tantrum.

One can always bring up anything at any time without being a jerk or throwing a tantrum.

The easiest way to deal with potential future problems is to put a value on your time. Let's say it costs you 10 minutes to go complain - if you think the probability of a future problem times the cost of the future problem outweighs your 10 minutes, then by all means complain.

The guy grinding the game to a halt to teach the dealer how to deal or to get a ruling on a $5 pot on principle? He's not crushing it.

from the original post "and may or may not have crossed the betting line with them"

If that is true you can certainly stop action and ask dealer if that move was a bet.

If you are still in the hand , then speaking up about things is totally OK IMHO. If I am not in a hand I usually just keep quiet , and let the dealer , floor , or more outspoken players hash it out. There is usually no lack of outspoken players BTW. As to this OP , yes the guy was out of line and needs a warning. Stuff like this often is overlooked in home games and folks can bring that to the casino. They should be politely advised not to do that and stricter measures taken if they keep it up.

Maybe but

It doesn't sound to me like the player was raising the issue for a ruling.

(We don't even know what the house rule is it whether player 8 is aware of the house rule)

The player did not speak up when it happened, waited for their to be action, addressed his statement to the player not the dealer, did not demand a ruling and said the reason he was saying something was because of concern that a player might not have seen it.

So even if you think the player thought that the action should be a binding bet .... Then while he would have the right to immediately seek a ruling that doesn't mean he has the right to coach another player to seek a ruling.

We're talking past each other. What the player did was 100% OPTAH violation and an egregious one.

What I was saying if he was clever, he could have phrased it so that it's not OPTAH at all even a little. If he said, wait up, he pushed chips up to the line, is that a bet or check? He would have accomplished the same thing and be 100% within the rules.

It would only be within the rules if he legitimately sought a ruling and did it at the appropriate time.

Or he values his principles VERY highly...

1) Only the Player facing action should be talking ... unless HU (see other threads)

2) If not in hand, address with Dealer/Floor after to see how that room handles those spots. Shouldn't feel inclined to protect your own interests during a hand your not still active. GL