Although V opened the door here ... I think it's generally considered 'angly' when a Player attempts to use/twist 'rules' for their benefit. I would also probably frown on someone 'dragging' the Dealer into the hand unnecessarily in an effort to execute/enhance table talk.

This case here it was more of a reverse angle of sorts and very well could've backfired just as easily as it worked. Relying on the Dealer to indicate a call had not been made could've gone the other way as well.

Scummy? Would the other Players have thought it was scummy if a call had been enforced and you showed down the nuts? Probably, but since it was a bluff I think you get more of pass here. (Interesting how that works ... )

Showing could've also backfired on you if the V had gotten pissed off and walked away for the night, sending tablemates into a tizzy.

Looks like you 'ran well' on all accounts, not sure if you had a read you could get him to fold or if yow were just acting out of desperation. GL

OP, it was a classic angle shot. You used the rules to manipulate the result of your action. This is almost a pure example of it.

Many poker players consider angle shooters as scumbags. Others feel that manuipulating the rules is part of the game. You'll have to accept that those people that think it was a scumbag move are not going to give you any benefit of the doubt going forward.

Naw he's just an angle shooter who saw an opportunity.

It's a bit scummy. Is needling scummy?

Showing a bluff to show you were angle shooting is scummy.

I agree with your definition that "us(ing) the rules to manipulate the result" is an angle shot. I disagree that this situation is a "pure example" of it. What the OP did is nothing different than sitting up and looking very interested when three to a flush hits on the river when all you are doing is bluffing with bottom pair.

Involving the dealer is the difference in my mind. But I'll accept that it is subjective.

I think what his opponent was doing was scummy so I have no problem with him fighting fire with fire. It's really annoying when players use forward motion of their chips and pump fakes to try to get a reaction, even if they are the fish at the table.

Villain was a drunken idiot who was slowing down the game.

Your move was not scummy, and was a great way to get the idiot's money in your pocket.

Showing the bluff was a bit douchey, but whatever, you were douchey to a drunken idiot who was slowing down the game.

What rule did OP manipulate by asking the dealer if villain called?

There are rooms that still have 'betting lines' and perhaps even a few who use forward motion to lock in an action. Most experienced Players also know that there is still a lot of possible misconception floating around when it comes to this spot.

OP knew what the 'rule' was in this room, probably the release of chips is needed for a call to be locked in. OP knew that it wasn't a call 'yet' and still asked the Dealer anyway to create/enhance the table talk. The second copied comment pretty much explains his (and my) position ... Keep the Dealer out of your table talk. GL

He tried to enforce a call from villain knowing that the rules of his room would not hold villain to a call. Some house rules would hold villain to a call. He is using his superior knowledge of house rules to get a desired outcome, which is angling.

Last year playing 10/20 limit O8 I had nut-nut on the river heads up. Old man checks to me and I bet. He tanks. I'm not used to playing this game live and leaving bets out from previous streets. After a while I noticed he had chips out far enough to call but I wasn't sure what street they were from. I asked him if he called because I didn't want to table my hand prematurely. Conversely I didn't want to slow him with the nuts.

The old guy immediately snapped at me and told me not to talk to him. I thought maybe he misheard me and thought I said something rude. So I informed him that I just asked him if he called. He said heard me and proceeded to go on a tirade. Another old guy to my right told me I should never talk to the player and that my question should have been addressed to the dealer. I thought this was ludicrous but they didn't.

I wouldn't do what OP did but I have zero issue with him doing it. If I were another player at the table but not in the hand, the phrase "angle shooting" would have never passed through my mind as a witness to that event.

I would never have been in villain's spot because I don't grab chips and move my hand forward unless I'm calling. If anything it seems like the villain was the one who made a sketchy move. He was the one who tried to get a reaction from hero by skirting the line with an odd house rule.

For the life of me I can't see how anybody thinks that showing a bluff is scummy. I don't often do it but if I do it's to try and induce a call in a later hand when I have strong hand.

The reaction in many of the responses in this thread is quite perplexing.

He didn't try to enforce a call, he just asked.

I don’t think what you did is scummy. But I would almost never show a bluff here. And more importantly, I REALLY think it’s not OK for the villain to be grabbing at the pot in the middle of the hand. I don’t care how drunk he is, this seems like a game integrity issue and I might call the floor on that even if I wasn’t in the hand. The dealer is irresponsible for not calling the floor himself.

Of course he wasn't enforcing a call, he was bluffing. But he didn't "just asked."

I think a lot of people are thinking since the victim "deserved it," it wasn't really an angle shot.

What if:

a)He just said aloud in general, "Is that a call?"
b)He looked at the villain and said, "Is that a call?"
c)He looked at the dealer and said, "Is that a call?"
d)He said, "Dealer, is that a call?"


It certainly can't be (a), we tell people all the time that it's fine to clarify action.
(b) isn't really any different than (a).
We tell people that the best way to clarify is with the dealer, so (c) is okay.
And (d) is just the same as (c).


That the OP knew in this case that it wasn't a call (but who knows really, half the threads here are about bad rulings), but I think that's irrelevant in this case.

its easy to tell who's a pro and who's a recreational player from the responses here.

you got a drunk on a heater;
no pro is EVER going to tap the glass and risk chasing them off just to feed their own EGO

It can. He wasn't clarifying the action, as he stated himself.

Your conclusion is like a juror stating, "I can't vote for 2nd degree murder. Sure, he said he knew the gun was loaded and intended to shoot the victim, but he might have been confused and not known that. That's reasonable doubt."

That's a very strange analogy.

As an aside, does anyone know what the Venetian rule is for their betting line and calls. It sounds like Op, while facing a bet, came forward across the line with chips in both hands and placed his hands on the felt with the chips touching the felt (while also somehow spreading the chips in the pot with his hands that have chips in them) yet Op says he knows that's not a call.

Is the line not actually a betting line at all, and just a courtesy line? If so, I would think the forward motion rule would make that a call. If it is a betting line, usually coming across the line with chips when facing a bet requires at least a call, or a raise. Can you really come across the iine with chips facing a bet, have the chips touch the felt, and them pull them back without that being a call at rhe V? Seems like that would be an unusual ruling for a betting line.

Or did I misread what the Op described as happening?

FMP

In rooms that use reasonable rule sets, yes, that would be a call.

But in some rooms the rule is chips RELEASED across the line. That is exactly what the written rule is where I play.

Yep, that's one of the rooms with bad rules.

I've seen that rule pertaining to when you are not facing a bet, so that you can come across the line with a stack in your hand and then cut out your bet. But in your room if you are facing a bet are you allowed to come across the line with chips in your hand and then simply pull them back and fold?