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Did I make a scumbag move here? Did I make a scumbag move here?

07-09-2019 , 12:54 PM
2/5 at the Venetian. Admittedly I'm a couple of drinks deep here and wasn't thinking properly.
Villain is completely off the rails drunk and has his shirt (basically) off. He's also likely high on some drug and has spent most of the time running like the sun and beating everyone with complete garbage hands. Everyone is playing super tight against this guy trying to stack him.

The situation: On the river of a Js Jc 4s 3c Qc (Pot 800) board I somehow got here with Td8d IP against villian. He checks and I shove for 550 effective and the villain starts tanking. He gets up and puts both fists (with chips in them) on the table and physically spreads the pot (he is very drunk). At this point the pot looks absolutely massive and I have no doubt that he is going to call.

I ask the dealer if his chips are over the line and he called (because his fists are over the line and the chips are touching the table) knowing full well that the dealer would say he hasn't called yet. Villain laughs and asks if I'm pulling dirty tricks to get a call already and snap mucks. I show villain my hand and the entire table gets on my case for angling.

Question: Did I make a scumbag move here? Do you guys believe that this is an ethical move to pull here? Genuinely curious.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 01:00 PM
Table talk. No big deal.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 01:01 PM
no but it was incredibly stupid to show your hand
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 01:02 PM
When you say he spread the pot do you mean he used his fists to push around the chips already in the middle? With chips in his hands? That's the worst thing you wrote here and if anything he should be accused of angling and potentially stealing from the pot. You asking WTF is happening here seems fine to me.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 01:54 PM
You had 10 high? How did that get there
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07-09-2019 , 02:32 PM
Mediocre attempt at a brag. BBV is a better place for this thread.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 03:27 PM
What kinda people thought YOU were angling? You always have a right to ask the dealer what's going on. And if I'm reading this correctly, WTF is villain doing touching chips already in the pot? That didn't get any one riled? And if he's got chips in his hands and is reaching into the pot to move the rest of the chips around, it would seem HE was shooting the angle trying to get a rise out of you, and you were merely asking to clarify the action.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discretion
Everyone is playing super tight against this guy trying to stack him.
Underrated part of the OP.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 03:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankInGeneral

You always have a right to ask the dealer what's going on.

...

you were merely asking to clarify the action.
He knew what was going on.

He thought he knew what the dealer's response would be.

He just wanted his Opponent to think that he wanted a call. Apparently it worked.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by durango155
You had 10 high? How did that get there
Hah this. I know it's off topic, but what are you even doing in this hand?
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 04:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lattimer
Hah this. I know it's off topic, but what are you even doing in this hand?
Nah, the thing to do against the drunk sunrunning guy is to put in a thousand dollars or so with no pairs, no draws, zero equity at all.
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07-09-2019 , 04:19 PM
What did the dealer do when that player (basically) took off his shirt? Doesn’t sound like responsible gaming to me.

Don’t show your cards. Nothing good can arise from that in this situation but a lot of bad things. Especially since both you and your opponent are intoxicated.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-09-2019 , 09:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
What did the dealer do when that player (basically) took off his shirt? Doesn’t sound like responsible gaming to me.

Don’t show your cards. Nothing good can arise from that in this situation but a lot of bad things. Especially since both you and your opponent are intoxicated.
Sounds like he got away with touching the chips in the pot without even a warning, also. I doubt it's a legal venue.

Seems like a low-level angle because OP is using superior knowledge of the rules to his own advantage. It's more than just normal table talk. It's not as bad as multiple things villain is described as doing, though.
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07-10-2019 , 12:07 AM
I cannot see any way to construe this as an angle. You are allowed to misrepresent your preferred outcome.

Of course I also consider the fake misclick to not be an angle either.
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07-10-2019 , 02:36 AM
Taking the pot is fine. Showing your 10 high hand is a scumbag move. Luckily for you scumbags are incredibly common at poker tables, so you don't have anything to worry about.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-10-2019 , 04:54 AM
LOL @ showing your cards.
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07-10-2019 , 04:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discretion
Did I make a scumbag move here?
Yes, right here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Discretion
I show villain my hand
Quote:
Everyone is playing super tight against this guy trying to stack him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by albedoa
Underrated part of the OP.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-10-2019 , 08:05 AM
I don’t see anything wrong with exposing your hand. Pretty routine strategic move, imho. This way if you tangle with this V again, he’s gonna remember this and call you down when you (should) have it. Maybe it’s advisable not to from a strategy perspective or not advisable from a “keep the peace” perspective, but I wouldn’t call it a scumbag move by any stretch.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-10-2019 , 10:37 AM
Showing your hand isn't a scumbag move. In most cases it's dumb, but in all cases it's perfectly acceptable.
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-10-2019 , 10:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guito
Taking the pot is fine. Showing your 10 high hand is a scumbag move. Luckily for you scumbags are incredibly common at poker tables, so you don't have anything to worry about.
I don't think it is advisable to show your cards here, but in what way is it scummy?
Did I make a scumbag move here? Quote
07-10-2019 , 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle
He knew what was going on.

He thought he knew what the dealer's response would be.

He just wanted his Opponent to think that he wanted a call. Apparently it worked.
So, for me, one form of angle shooting is using behavior outside of the game context to mislead or misrepresent your intent. For example, seeing that you have AA, then faking a phone call and saying that you have a family emergency and have to go and shoving all your chips into the middle would be considered an angle. Seeing AA, and saying 'These cards aren't too good, but I have to play them' would not be considered an angle. Placing in a raise, and then verbally declaring call immediately afterwards, or placing in a weirdly large bet but then saying you grabbed the wrong chip are considered by most to be angle, but considered by some to be simple, acceptable misdirection.

Asking a dealer to clarify action is 100% an acceptable action. Is asking the dealer to clarify action specifically to change your image, and not because you are unclear on the action, angle shooting, though? Is asking for a dealer clarification considered within the bounds of game play such that it can be used as a fake tell?
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07-10-2019 , 12:09 PM
Showing bluff is scummy?
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07-10-2019 , 12:52 PM
Showing a bluff isn’t scummy but showing the cards proved that OP was semi-angling with his actions. That has the risk of killing the action in the game and a small risk of provoking the drunk player to escalate. Just completely inadvisable.
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07-10-2019 , 01:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518
Showing a bluff isn’t scummy but showing the cards proved that OP was semi-angling with his actions. That has the risk of killing the action in the game and a small risk of provoking the drunk player to escalate. Just completely inadvisable.
This. And I don’t think the risk of really upsetting the other player is that small. I wouldn’t go as far as saying that everyone who removes their shirt at the table is a safety risk, but chances are that the player is in a mental state where other odd behavior shouldn’t surprise anyone.

Considering that hero also had a couple drinks and that the dealer apparently doesn’t have any control over the game, somebody calling the floor is not unlikely. That might result in both villain and hero removed from the game “because I really don’t have time to deal with any of that” (in the voice of an annoyed floor man).
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07-14-2019 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518
Nah, the thing to do against the drunk sunrunning guy is to put in a thousand dollars or so with no pairs, no draws, zero equity at all.
Fold equity still counts as equity
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