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Old 11-17-2017, 12:20 PM   #51
chillrob
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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Originally Posted by Didace View Post
Sometimes, in a tournament, I'm not thinking about betting but would like to disguise the strength of my hand. I'll look thoughtful, count out some chips that look like an amount I might bet, consider how much I have left, and then after a few moments I will check. I do this with the hope that my opponent checks behind. Am I angling?
No, you're just a selfish douchebag who ruins poker for others.
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Old 11-17-2017, 12:21 PM   #52
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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... It is not cheating...
Sigh.
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Old 11-17-2017, 01:19 PM   #53
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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No, you're just a selfish douchebag who ruins poker for others.
If someone spends 20 or 30 seconds putting on a show, and they don't do it everytime, I doubt that this is ruining poker.

If you hollywood on EVERY single decision, yeah, I would apply your statement.
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:02 PM   #54
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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No, you're just a selfish douchebag who ruins poker for others.
Because I sometimes tank a few seconds even if I know I'm going to fold? You're getting a little unhinged here.
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:08 PM   #55
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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Sigh.
Sigh Back! If you think this ploy is cheating , why not explain why you think it is. Thanks!
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:08 PM   #56
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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I consider angles in general as trying to create a situation to take advantage of,
whereas you were taking advantage of a situation that already existed, hence no angle
I like this. To me it's a bit of an angle. But jeeez, it was dropped right in your lap giftwrapped.


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Sigh.
You seem to think any "move"/acting/table talk is angling and is just short of full on cheating.
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:41 PM   #57
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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Sigh Back! If you think this ploy is cheating , why not explain why you think it is. Thanks!
I was exasperated because I had just said this: "When someone accuses you of angling, the answer can never be "but I didn't break any rules".

I never said this was cheating, and in fact I think it is definitely not. Cheating is not the same as angleshooting. That is why they are different words. Cheating is breaking the rules. Angleshooting is trying to take advantage of situations (by tricking someone, etc), specifically without breaking the rules. That's why people who know the rules very well are usually the most effective angleshooters.
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:46 PM   #58
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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To me it's a bit of an angle. But jeeez, it was dropped right in your lap giftwrapped.
That's why I said in my first post that I thought it was angly but I wouldn't feel bad about it. Basically exactly the same as what you are saying now.

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You seem to think any "move"/acting/table talk is angling and is just short of full on cheating.
Again, I never even compared it to cheating. Angling is not cheating. I can't respect any angling, and I doubt I would ever do what OP did, but I think there are differences in how bad it is, and OP is towards the less bad end of the spectrum.
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:49 PM   #59
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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I was exasperated because I had just said this: "When someone accuses you of angling, the answer can never be "but I didn't break any rules".

I never said this was cheating, and in fact I think it is definitely not. Cheating is not the same as angleshooting. That is why they are different words. Cheating is breaking the rules. Angleshooting is trying to take advantage of situations (by tricking someone, etc), specifically without breaking the rules. That's why people who know the rules very well are usually the most effective angleshooters.
Cool! Thanks
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Old 11-17-2017, 02:59 PM   #60
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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Angleshooting is trying to take advantage of situations (by tricking someone, etc), specifically without breaking the rules. That's why people who know the rules very well are usually the most effective angleshooters.
Angling, at least to me, would be if you knew a room had a hard and fast betting line and you put out a stack of chips just short of the line to see what the tourist would do. Putting your hands near your chips when it's your turn (or even when it's not) doesn't rise to that level. Again, to me, others may differ.
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:45 PM   #61
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

I agree that is worse, but that they're both angling. Would be tough to draw a line based on motion. Moving hands? Touching chips? Lifting chips? Moving chips a centimeter? Moving chips an inch?

That's why I think the definition has to be based on intent. If the motion is meant to trick someone, it's an angle.
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Old 11-17-2017, 03:50 PM   #62
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

But how do you discern intent?

FWIW: I think we are really close here, just nitting around the edges.
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Old 11-17-2017, 04:15 PM   #63
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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Again, I never even compared it to cheating. Angling is not cheating.
Yeah but to you it's close.

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I can't respect any angling,
That's where we differ.

Checking with the intent to checkraise is a respectable angle... isn't it?

OP angle is fine in my book. Many don't even consider it an angle.

The guy who flops the nuts and reaches out with a handful of chips and checks and then argues when he's forced to bet... deserves to get sent home for the night.
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Old 11-17-2017, 04:45 PM   #64
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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But how do you discern intent?

FWIW: I think we are really close here, just nitting around the edges.
You very rarely be certain about intent...except in the OP, where he admitted it!
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Old 11-17-2017, 04:46 PM   #65
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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Checking with the intent to checkraise is a respectable angle... isn't it?
You really think that is an angle? I certainly don't.

If it's something you can do when playing poker online, it's not an angle (unless there is some obscure thing I haven't thought of).
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Old 11-20-2017, 07:26 PM   #66
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

So, as I envision OP, we are heads up and Villain checks, Hero, in position, goes through the motions of cutting out a bet, but Villain folds before Hero gets the bet out. This is not an angle IMO, but beware. A fiddle with chips and then no bet is a fairly reliable tell that you are weak (player dependent of course, but moreso against someone who self identifies as a new player). Since this has already happened once or twice, I may feign the fold, hang on to my cards, and when you don't bet, I will put in a sizable bet on the next street (depending on my hand and the change to the board of course).
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:37 PM   #67
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

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I agree that is worse, but that they're both angling. Would be tough to draw a line based on motion. Moving hands? Touching chips? Lifting chips? Moving chips a centimeter? Moving chips an inch?

That's why I think the definition has to be based on intent. If the motion is meant to trick someone, it's an angle.
I agree that something has to be intentional to be criticized as an angle. Angles by definition are unethical, i.e., contrary to the spirit and ethics of the game. If done by accident, something may be regrettable, but can hardly be unethical, therefore it's not an actual angle.
But anything (outside of actual bets) done with the intent to deceive is an angle?
Facial expressions, tone of voice, posture, different betting motions or timing? Any reverse tell? I think these are all part of live poker, and not angles. It feels as though you think live poker should replicate online poker. Ugh.

Last edited by MJ88; 11-30-2017 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 11-30-2017, 05:42 PM   #68
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

No, I do not think any of those are angles. I think anything that involves moving your chips with the intent to deceive is an angle.
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Old 12-03-2017, 09:50 PM   #69
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Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

I fold like this sometimes bc there is no logic to bluffing a particular player or i missed and have absolutely no showdown value. Not an angle, but if you think it could be, you should bet the minimum and see if he ever calls you.
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