Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-16-2017, 04:48 PM   #26
Aurora Tom
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 510
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

I'm guessing the OP mis-typed and that he's talking about the player on his left, not his right. He did say that he's a new player.
Aurora Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 04:57 PM   #27
Lord_Crispen
adept
 
Lord_Crispen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: unknown
Posts: 817
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Or, more likely, the guy checked to him?
Lord_Crispen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:01 PM   #28
Rizzeedizzee
veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,569
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Probably it's not as black and white as this, but I consider angles in general as trying to create a situation to take advantage of, whereas you were taking advantage of a situation that already existed, hence no angle
Rizzeedizzee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:01 PM   #29
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
Or, more likely, the guy checked to him?
This is how I interpreted the OP.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:09 PM   #30
Outoftime44444
centurion
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 144
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Thank you for the feedback everyone.
Outoftime44444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:17 PM   #31
SpewingIsMyMove
veteran
 
SpewingIsMyMove's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 2,360
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

There are two classifications of angleshooting that I frequently see.
1. Misdirection or miscommunication designed to hide your true intent. Examples of this are the old 'I meant to call, but I accidentally threw out the wrong chip' move.
2. Ambiguous action designed to get free action or information they are not entitled to. Examples of this are the player who, facing an all-in bet on the river, says 'OK', then claims that OK is not a call when the other player tables the nuts.

I am of the opinion that the 1st class really isn't angling. Misdirection is part of poker. Some people argue that there is misdirection that is within the normal game flow, and misdirection that is outside the normal game flow, and that the latter is angling. Others feel that any misdirection is fair game.

Your case is part of the first group.
SpewingIsMyMove is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:23 PM   #32
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 14,108
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
That is similar to this thread in basically no ways at all.
Trying to look like the flop hit me hard is not similar to looking like I might want to bet? Interesting.
Didace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:23 PM   #33
Greg (FossilMan)
Main Event Champion
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 3,322
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

If they're heads-up, it doesn't matter if the OP is on the right and first to act, or on the left and acting after villain checks. In either case, he is not pump-faking a bet, but reaching towards his chips, not yet touching them. If villain acts before OP can move any further, not an angle at all, no matter what was in the mind of the OP.

I recall a similar spot years ago in a limit holdem tourney. I raise pre with AQ, villain calls from big blind. Flop is dry but King hi, villain checks, and I start to reach towards my stack, intending to c-bet. Before I can touch my chips, villain throws out a check-raise. I stop short of touching my chips, and check. Villain calls for floor, who is correctly told what happened, and looks at villain, saying "Are you serious? You want me to force him to bet, because he was going to do so, but then didn't because you acted out of turn?" Ruling was no bet, flop is checked, through, deal the turn.

Could I somehow be guilty of angling because I wouldn't oblige the idiot villain by betting after he check-raised out of turn? If yes, then the rules are really ****ed up.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)
Greg (FossilMan) is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:42 PM   #34
Outoftime44444
centurion
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 144
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

To answer the main question everyone is asking, I was directly to his left, so he checked to me first.
Outoftime44444 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 05:48 PM   #35
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
Trying to look like the flop hit me hard is not similar to looking like I might want to bet? Interesting.
Trying to look like anything is not the same as pretending to take a valid action that you have no intention of taking.

While I respect Greg's opinion, his example is also not the same, because he intended to bet. Intention matters. In fact, in determining if something is an angle or not, it is basically all that matters.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 06:04 PM   #36
Neverlucky16
old hand
 
Neverlucky16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,384
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

OP unphased by the legend Greg Raymer answering his question

Pretty sure this answers the thread question by itself
Neverlucky16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 06:10 PM   #37
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverlucky16 View Post
OP unphased by the legend Greg Raymer answering his question

Pretty sure this answers the thread question by itself
Huh?
Because he clarified who acted first?
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 06:12 PM   #38
Neverlucky16
old hand
 
Neverlucky16's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1,384
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Huh?
Because he clarified who acted first?
Lol no
Neverlucky16 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 06:21 PM   #39
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neverlucky16 View Post
Lol no
That was the only thing the OP did since Greg gave his input.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 09:14 PM   #40
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 14,108
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Trying to look like anything is not the same as pretending to take a valid action that you have no intention of taking.
I can only conclude that in our respective mind's eye's we are seeing something different happen in the OP. To me, "slowly moved my hands to my chips" isn't pretending to take a valid action.
Didace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-16-2017, 09:42 PM   #41
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Didace View Post
I can only conclude that in our respective mind's eye's we are seeing something different happen in the OP. To me, "slowly moved my hands to my chips" isn't pretending to take a valid action.
When he does it with the intent to get villain to fold because he thinks hero is betting he is.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 12:24 AM   #42
JoseJohnnyJimJack
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Varianceville
Posts: 756
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

If OP's action without forward motion is an angle, then if positions and chip actions are switched, wouldn't someone acting after like he's about to call my bet without moving his chips forward also be an angle?

Btw, without forward motion, I don't think either is an angle.
JoseJohnnyJimJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 12:27 AM   #43
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseJohnnyJimJack View Post
If OP's action without forward motion is an angle, then if positions are switched, wouldn't someone acting after like he's about to call my bet without moving his chips forward also be an angle?
Yes, if someone has bet and you pretend like you're going to call in the hopes of getting him to expose his hand without actually risking your chips, that is an angle. There have been lots of threads about things like that.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 12:35 AM   #44
JoseJohnnyJimJack
adept
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Varianceville
Posts: 756
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Yes, if someone has bet and you pretend like you're going to call in the hopes of getting him to expose his hand without actually risking your chips, that is an angle. There have been lots of threads about things like that.
I guess I have a loose interpretation of angling and lean more toward protecting your hand.
JoseJohnnyJimJack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 02:33 AM   #45
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoseJohnnyJimJack View Post
I guess I have a loose interpretation of angling and lean more toward protecting your hand.
I don't understand what it has to do with protecting your hand.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 05:44 AM   #46
Riverine
centurion
 
Riverine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: On the river
Posts: 194
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
Yes, if someone has bet and you pretend like you're going to call in the hopes of getting him to expose his hand without actually risking your chips, that is an angle. There have been lots of threads about things like that.
I'm not sure I'm envisioning the same action here as some others. If someone bets, tons of players will move their hands to the chips, cut out the call amount, think about it, restack, recut, , shuffle chips, etc. i don't think anybody considers any of that an angleshoot or pretending to call to get a player to expose his hand. Unless the guy tries to feign somehow forward motion, or moves his chips up to, but short of a betting line, it's just normal action.

OP said he moves his hands towards his chips. He didn't even say that he actually touched them. How can tha be in angle? Lots of people also cut out chips when they are not facing a bet, while deciding whether to bet or not. Absent an attempt to pump fake, that's not an angle, even if they know they are going to check, but want to make it seem like he has a tough decision. If a player observes that and folds it's not because he was the victim of an angle, it was because he is a beginner and doesn't recognize common table actions.
Riverine is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 05:59 AM   #47
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,466
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riverine View Post
I'm not sure I'm envisioning the same action here as some others. If someone bets, tons of players will move their hands to the chips, cut out the call amount, think about it, restack, recut, , shuffle chips, etc. i don't think anybody considers any of that an angleshoot or pretending to call to get a player to expose his hand. Unless the guy tries to feign somehow forward motion, or moves his chips up to, but short of a betting line, it's just normal action.

OP said he moves his hands towards his chips. He didn't even say that he actually touched them. How can that be in angle? Lots of people also cut out chips when they are not facing a bet, while deciding whether to bet or not. Absent an attempt to pump fake, that's not an angle, even if they know they are going to check, but want to make it seem like he has a tough decision. If a player observes that and folds it's not because he was the victim of an angle, it was because he is a beginner and doesn't recognize common table actions.
It's like you guys aren't even reading the same OP. He admitted he wasn't even thinking about betting, he was just trying to trick the other guy into mucking.

OP: "slowly moved my hands to my chips to see if he'd just fold again"

I have no idea why anyone thinks it is only an angle if he does a pump fake or forward motion. An angle is about the intention. Of course doing what OP did doesn't break any rules. If it broke rules, it would be outright cheating, not angling. When someone accuses you of angling, the answer can never be "but I didn't break any rules".

If there is a betting line that is in play, doing what OP did is just as angly as the pump fake: it's pretending you're going to bet but not betting.

If the rule is forward motion, then what the OP did is an angle, and the pump-fake is not an angle, because it is a bet. If someone tries to take back a bet, it is cheating.
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 08:50 AM   #48
Didace
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Didace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 14,108
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob View Post
It's like you guys aren't even reading the same OP. He admitted he wasn't even thinking about betting, he was just trying to trick the other guy into mucking.
Sometimes, in a tournament, I'm not thinking about betting but would like to disguise the strength of my hand. I'll look thoughtful, count out some chips that look like an amount I might bet, consider how much I have left, and then after a few moments I will check. I do this with the hope that my opponent checks behind. Am I angling?
Didace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 10:07 AM   #49
Mr Rick
Pooh-Bah
 
Mr Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,186
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

I don't think what OP did is an angle. Poker is a game of deception and it was deceptive.

My definition of an angle is doing something that is technically legal but violates the spirit of the rules. I don't think reaching for chips violates the spirit of the rules.

I can't tell you how many times I am at a table and somebody says "if you had just breathed on your chips I would have folded". So I started breathing on my chips more.

And when I see somebody reach for chips, count them out, and then not bet I almost always suspect that they are either trying to get me to fold or trying to get me to not bet myself (if I haven't already checked).

In the end I think what OP did is not very different than bluffing. Its just cheaper.
Mr Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-17-2017, 10:49 AM   #50
Bene Gesserit
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Bene Gesserit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: my old Kentucky Home
Posts: 6,314
Re: Did I angle shoot? Help!

This is not even unethical. It's an ages old poker move to confuse or decieve your opponent about your hand strength and your likely intentions. If you are weak and it induces a fold , it's just a ploy that worked. Most players with some experience recognize this old trick. It is not cheating/unethical to be deceptive within the rules. Often it is how you actually win hands in the end.
Bene Gesserit is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:50 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online