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Old 08-16-2018, 08:56 PM   #1
Mr me
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Post Debate on angle-shooting.

Hi.

Is calling a player on the river regardless of your hand because you guess he'll muck right away most of his bluff a angleshoot?

Thanks

Last edited by Mr me; 08-16-2018 at 09:15 PM.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:06 PM   #2
youtalkfunny
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

OR:

"I called huge bet with nothing, hoping bettor was bluffing and would muck rather than show. He mucked. I can't stop boasting about this play. One guy who heard the story says i'm angle shooting, a tiny bit. Am i?"

Now, to punish you for posting a 3000-word Humble Brag, we're not going to answer your question.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:15 PM   #3
Mr me
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Better now guys?
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:46 PM   #4
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

So the question is, "is this an angle shoot?"

I wrote down the answer on a piece of paper, but then I fired that paper into the muck because it wasn't a particularly good answer.
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Old 08-16-2018, 09:59 PM   #5
Mr me
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Lol alright, i get the point
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Old 08-16-2018, 10:55 PM   #6
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

I've heard about and seen it in person several times. While it's not terribly common, it's nothing new either. Definitely not and angle IMO. You're making a decision based on what you think your opponent will do, which is just part of the game. If someone would rather forfeit his claim to the pot than to table his hand, then that's on him and it could be exploited by other players just like any other part of a player's game..... Just table your freakin hand.
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:33 AM   #7
Mr me
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Thanks for your thought branch
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Old 08-17-2018, 09:46 AM   #8
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

An angleshot traditionally is defined as something that would be considered an unfair play, but also something that isn't against the rules.

In this situation, I don't think anyone would think it's unfair to call when you think you're behind. And I don't think anyone would think it's unfair to call a bluff. I guess the closest you could get to an angleshot in this situation is hanging on to your cards and demanding to see the other guy's hand after he says "you're good" but holds on to his cards. An extreme situation would be if you call with the lowest possible hand in holdem (like 23 when the board is AKQJ9) and you politely demand to see his hand instead of just conceding the pot when he tells you you're good.

But barring that hypothetical, I can't think of when it would get even close to an angleshot.
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:54 AM   #9
Aurora Tom
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

I'm not sure how this could possibly be considered an angle. You read him well and called his bluff. He mucked and you won the pot. Nothing slimy about it at all. Was there something else in what got snipped? Sounds like you bragged about it, which may be scummy depending on the extent of it but that's after the hand is over so it has no relevance on the hand itself.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:53 PM   #10
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Quote:
An extreme situation would be if you call with the lowest possible hand in holdem (like 23 when the board is AKQJ9) and you politely demand to see his hand instead of just conceding the pot when he tells you you're good.
This is precisely what happened in the OP. Hero held 54, board was something like 23J99. Villain led out every street, Hero put him on busted flush draw, didn't have enough chips to raise him out, so went with the value call, lol, and it worked.

V even said, "You're good," as you describe, but mucked at the same time, there was no insisting by Hero that the cards be tabled. He just sat there quietly after calling, collected his moneyz, and then could not resist showing his play to the table (who could fault him for that, tho?).

I stand by my original summary, "I called a huge bet with nothing...", as I don't see how the various degrees of nothing are a factor here.
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Old 08-17-2018, 01:58 PM   #11
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Not an angle.

I'm not sure why you would ever show, though, it's like killing the golden goose. That guy is never going to muck to your call again.
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:31 PM   #12
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Not an angle but a horrible call with 54 (if this actually happened).
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Old 08-17-2018, 02:41 PM   #13
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

I think I sat at a table with one of those "bluff, get called, then muck" guys. Made a couple of calls hoping it was that, they were. I don't recall if the room (Bethlehem Sands) required me to show.
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Old 08-17-2018, 03:57 PM   #14
Mr me
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Thank you guys for your answers.

I originaly posted the full conversation between me and the person who i was arguing with because i didnt want him to say that i only explained it from my perspective.

Since the first answers i received were saying that i was bragging and i only wanted to talk about that specific hand, i decided to simplify it to what you can read now.

I didnt mean to humble brag or anything. I have been playing poker for a while and the fact that he was arguing with me over what is angleshoot got me. I think that i am right but i figured that if i am wrong, better ask a community of poker player about what they think.

That specific hand is not what matters. I wanted serious answer in case i am wrong all the way. Thats all.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:24 PM   #15
Mr me
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by youtalkfunny View Post
OR:

"I called huge bet with nothing, hoping bettor was bluffing and would muck rather than show. He mucked. I can't stop boasting about this play. One guy who heard the story says i'm angle shooting, a tiny bit. Am i?"

Now, to punish you for posting a 3000-word Humble Brag, we're not going to answer your question.
Originally, this conversation started on a forum with multiple topics when someone asked the question:

What is the best play you've ever made at a poker table ?

So yeah, i bragged over there at first. That was the point.
I also started by saying: ''Mine is not a good play but it worked out fine''

But then, when the guy told me i was angleshooting (but very very softly) we started debating on who was right about the definition of angle shooting.

Thats why i posted the whole conversation. Becaused it included his argument about it. My intention was not to brag about the hand. It was for you to see the whole debate we had.

But since the reaction i got was: Ohh you're bragging, i wont answer. I deleted everything to summarise my question.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:56 PM   #16
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Some angle shoots are stupid moves. Not all stupid moves are angle shoots. This falls into the latter. Bluffcatching with the near nut low (cant see original post so I'm assuming that is what happened) in the hope the bluffer will muck is just dumb but nowhere near an angle shoot.
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Old 08-17-2018, 04:58 PM   #17
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by donkatruck View Post
Some angle shoots are stupid moves. Not all stupid moves are angle shoots. This falls into the latter. Bluffcatching with the near nut low (cant see original post so I'm assuming that is what happened) in the hope the bluffer will muck is just dumb but nowhere near an angle shoot.
Thank you for your answer.
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Old 08-17-2018, 10:23 PM   #18
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

This is not an angle. Its just an excellent read and a gutsy call.

The good thing about this play is that when it goes wrong you don't have to show. Personally I wouldn't show when it goes right either.

To me an angle is something that is legal but is ethically challenged. There is nothing wrong with bluffing. And this is a variation on a bluff.
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Old 08-18-2018, 12:08 AM   #19
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Call with 5 high and announce better hand - angle

Call with 5 high and do nothing - not an angle
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Old 08-18-2018, 04:24 AM   #20
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Rick View Post
This is not an angle. Its just an excellent read and a gutsy call.

The good thing about this play is that when it goes wrong you don't have to show. Personally I wouldn't show when it goes right either.

To me an angle is something that is legal but is ethically challenged. There is nothing wrong with bluffing. And this is a variation on a bluff.
I've seen this play go wrong in the worst way. Villain turns over something weird like 8 high and the caller can't win
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Old 08-18-2018, 06:41 PM   #21
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Not an angle.

Showing is moronic though.
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Old 08-18-2018, 07:27 PM   #22
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

You should definitely show, because it will tilt villain, everyone else at the table will be confused as all heck and never bluff u for the rest of the night, and because we shouldn't call with the nut low in the future anyway.
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Old 08-18-2018, 11:11 PM   #23
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Crispen View Post
I've seen this play go wrong in the worst way. Villain turns over something weird like 8 high and the caller can't win


Sure. But it's a very specific play for a very specific V. How many times do you want to see a specific V bet the river, get called and muck before you are willing to make that call, or that you call light knowing that's a non-zero possible outcome?
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Old 08-19-2018, 01:30 AM   #24
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Re: Debate on angle-shooting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue56 View Post
Sure. But it's a very specific play for a very specific V. How many times do you want to see a specific V bet the river, get called and muck before you are willing to make that call, or that you call light knowing that's a non-zero possible outcome?
I have one guy I'd ever even think about doing this to in our room, but honestly I'd just put in a small raise if I was in the spot unless the guy was all in.

I'm not saying it's a good expectation play. I'm just saying it was funny to see the hero call and after playing the showdown staredown for a bit, the villain turned up 9 or 10 high and the caller sheepishly mucked. He took a bit of fun ribbing and we moved on. It's not a big deal and it wasn't that big of a bet. Sometimes we have fun in our games.
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