Totally agree with Fore.

I think there's also a difference between dealers who talk a lot but to the whole table, vs dealers who end up in those intense 1-on-1 conversations with a player that drive me nuts. (Plus less attention to the game.) A dealer who acts like an MC can still pay attention because they're not looking at any 1 person for too long and it's not a deep conversation.

One type is good for the table, and the other is bad.

When I've dealt games at the nosebleed stakes, the players generally already know each other and have played together a lot. They're generally engaged in a lively conversation and the last thing they need is a dealer to entertain them.

On the other hand, a 1-2 NL table can have a couple of outgoing players who are there solely to have fun and be social or it can be completely void of conversation. If I sit down at the latter, I'm going to try to initiate some kind of discussion to get people engaged with each other and to have more fun. This is better for my bottom line as a dealer, but it's also better for the game. Instead of quietly disengaging and nitting it up they're more likely to get involved in hands and to be a part of the game rather than staring at their phones and waiting to look down at pocket pairs or AK.

If I'm dealing a streaming or televised game, I'm aware of it and I'm going to treat it as if I was auditioning for a job. I'm doing everything by the book, and I'm not taking any of the shortcuts I might typically do (putting out the turn before I bring in all of the bets) and I'm probably not saying a word other than to answer a question a player asks me about the action or to say "thank you" when I receive a tip.

Things that dealers do that are mutually beneficial


1. No mistakes
2. Positive non intrusive presence
3. Available to participate in table talk with pros and recs without alienating either
4. Understand how to navigate working for the house AND the players
5. Respectfully handle disgruntled players(this can be tough)


I can see how new dealers might not understand how to fit in while maintaining their #1 priority of running the game efficiently but in my opinion its crucial to success long term

These are completely different situations and I think you know that. These are tv shows and the dealers are instructed not to say anything because the producers don’t want the dealers to be part of the show or take any of the spotlight away from the players.

That's a huge difference between a 'Production' and a 'Stream'. Most of the streams do identify the Dealers and use them for 'white noise' comments to fill the airtime.

I don't even think the Dealers have a headset for PAD, HSP or NGNF. It's possible they do because of the dramatic pauses for the all-ins.. They only time I remember them being included is when someone says they'll tip extra for one reason or another. GL

I’ve been playing some limit hold ‘em again which puts most of my play back at The Bellagio. And it’s clear they’ve been working with their dealers since they now seem to be at Wynn quality level.

Mason

Played at the Venetian this past weekend a bit and the quality of the average dealer was horrendous. They had dealers in PLO that couldn't figure out pot, couldn't figure out how to quarter in double board bomb pots, etc.

Also lots of dealers that were talking way too much. One would make 2-3 jokes every hand and then crack up at himself as everyone at the table was eye rolling.

I think in the future even if I am staying at Venetian I will make the trip across the street to Wynn. I agree the dealers at Wynn are fantastic.

I went there last time I was in town because they had a Big O cash game (during a big O tournament). It was very good action for a bit before getting bad but I agree about the dealers. They had no idea what to do and were too fast and reckless about splitting giant pots and quartering and I had to stop them several times so things wouldn’t be completely screwed up. They also talked way too much with the regulars. Finally though not having to do with the dealers they had ultimate last action for button straddles which is terrible. Places like Wynn are hard to beat (also like Resorts World for the mixed games and overall vibe).

Much, but not all, of poker management has little understanding of how bad the dealers are (in many places). This not only hurts the games, it hurts the revenue that the poker room should collect, and it hurts the dealers in reduced tips.

However, the tide seems to be turning as more poker room managers seem to be aware of the problem. But in many poker rooms, there's still a long way to go.

Mason

Plot twist:

My conspiracy is that the Managers know that they have subpar dealers, hiring dealers that are jussssst good enough to get the job done, which increases the safety of their job at the top....

I love a good conspiracy theory and I'm trying to get behind this but, I don't see the connection between mediocre dealers and job safety. Please elaborate.

If something might either be a Machiavellian scheme or laziness, it's almost always laziness.

Assuming a location has low limit games, and the dealer pool for those games are mediocre and can get the job done, (separate from the big games and mixed games which players usually hand pick dealers). None of these dealers are good enough, or likely have enough ambition to try and become a floor/room manager. Therefore if the casino exec's are even considering promoting or hiring within to replace, they are less likely to do so if there is no legit candidates. Alternative is hiring from outside which cost more money and can potentially ruin what little morale may exist.

For ex.
"Who is this new guy/girl they brought in, they don't know what their doing."

While I agree that it can be laziness, there is also a comfort for working class people with familiarity (with an ok manager) even if its mediocrity all around.

The obvious arguement is that enough complaints about subpar dealers could potentially lose a manager their job, but 90% of degen poker players don't know how to go up that ladder to get the room manager canned, they usually go TO the manager and he can squash it before he/she is ever seen as mediocre him/herself. Use the incident as an opportunity to come down on the mid-management and ground level worker, and strengthen their position, especially if they aren't the one who works with the dealers day to day, that would be the floor, who is a layer of insulation. "Well it appears this floor did not notice the dealer was not doing a,b,c......"

Realize there is a large difference in the poker rooms I am familiar with b/w a floor supervisor and the room manager.

At least in New England, rooms are struggling to find dealers period. I'm sure they would like the best dealers possible, but given the choice of a poor dealer or not having the table open at all, they are choosing to have the table open.

I'm not familiar with poker rooms in this location. But I wonder if not having a game is better than having a game with a dealer who needs to improve. That's because dealers, if the poker room management is effective and does work with them, can, and in most cases, improve.

This sounds to me like you're describing management which doesn't care.

Mason

This is a terrible read.

In Vegas since so many poker rooms are closing it is fairly easy to hire competent poker dealers. Competent. Not good, just ok.

In other locations it can be nearly impossible.

Look at the local unemployment rate. In most places, unemployment is at an all time low. That means that poker managers are hiring whomever they can. It isn't like 100s of PHD holders are applying. They only can select from what applies. They are selecting from the bottom of the barrel.

Poker Dealer is a weird position.

In general it is easy. Toss cards, call out bets. Easy. Literally a monkey could be taught that. However, that is not where the skill of the dealer matters. Where it matters is when there is an exception. When tossing and calling out bets are not enough. It these cases, the smarter, more experienced dealers will make a huge difference.

It should also be noted that I am fairly sure you (Mason) would be mediocre poker dealer at best. Obviously you are more than smart enough. You certainly know the rules well enough. However there is much more to it than that.

I am 100% positive you do it understand why.

As suggested, there are levels of management that may or may not exist and it may not necessarily be clear who actually 'tests' and hires Dealers. IMO Rooms with 15+ tables probably hold Dealer Schools and might be lucky to find 1-3 worth putting out on the Floor. BUT they may HAVE TO put 4-7 out on the Floor to fill slots and hope for the best.

So some Floors may have zero say in who shows up and when they show up .. and how long they need to be working.

I will say that most Dealers want very little with moving up the ladder .. don't even want to be a Dual Rate either. Some Rooms will lean on Dealers they see as Floor candidates, but I'm not all that privy to those politics other than they do exist.

Some Dealers may go the Floor route if they feel their body breaking down or they actually do have aspirations of climbing the ladder more then one or two rungs. GL

Completely agree with Answer about dealers becoming floors. Ime, the good dealers have zero interest in becoming a floor. One room I play in has zero FT floors. All of the dealers are dual rates (or become such very quickly once there). Note I am NOT suggesting this is good model; quite the opposite, I see it as one of the biggest short comings of that room. But I know for a fact none of those dealers wanted to become FT floors or even DR. They had to. They hate it. It shows in their performance. They can make more dealing than they will as a DR or FT floor.

Some dealers might decide to floor as the get older and the physicality of dealing begins to wear on them. The ones that choose to go that route early in their career generally are and need to be shooting for at least room mgr or beyond for it to make sense $-wise. (Maybe tournament director in some larger rooms).

The other point to note is that a good dealer may not be good on the floor AND a poor dealer might make a great floor. It depends on why they are a poor dealer. The skills necessary to being a good floor do overlap with being a good dealer but that set is an intersection. Neither is a super set of the other either.

I have been having numerous conversations with people that work in the casino industry (pit and poker side) and the bolded I have heard from almost everyone. A manager will promote a lesser dealer before promoting a good dealer, but there is never any logical explanation when I ask follow up questions. I don't come from a service/hospitality background and maybe that makes it harder for me to understand.

How do other service based industries hold up if the lowest level worker is making more than the "supervisor" or floor......this dynamic has to lead to retention issues long term, especially when the supervisors in the poker room have a good idea of what their workers are making.

Lots of comments on this thread....

1. It should be noted that it is human nature that a person gets distracted doing two things at once as opposed to two. A dealer who is talking and dealing will never do as well as an equally skilled version who is just dealing. Good dealers can pull of both, but they would deal better if they were not distracted by doing both. Absolutely no doubt.

2. While we mostly focus on the poker aspect of dealing here because this is a poker site, it should be noted that while dealing poker is a dealers primary job, it is not their only job. They are also representatives of the casino working in a customer facing job. If I am a dealer and the player in seat 2 asks me about some of the restaurants in the casino, as an employee of the casino, I should be prepared to engage them in conversation about the restaurants. Yes, the conversation can get carried away and distract from my dealing, but it is also part of my job.

It is a tradeoff.

No right answer.

3. Depending upon where a dealer is dealing, and the game they are dealing there is a huge difference in their actions at a table. If a dealer is at a location that has lots of big games with very serious players, they should shut up and deal. They are there to move the chips and cards, nothing more. Shut up and do not speak unless absolutely necessary.

However there are games where it is a tourist destination and the players are there looking for a good time (win or lose, poker results are secondary to the journey). In those cases it is incumbent upon the dealer to ensure the players are enjoying themselves. The dealer should be vocal and ask players where they are from, what they are in town for, etc. Those players are looking to be acknowledged. They are looking to be entertained. They are only mildly concerned with the poker results. In those cases a poker dealer is expected to be talkative.

It depends. Dealers need to read the room.

That said, good dealers can do both and not let it affect the quality of their dealing (even though it does at some level). It is a happy medium.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of dealers who get caught up in unnecessary conversations and therefore make lots of mistakes because of it. Even worse, there are dealers who can't help themselves and get 100% engaged in conversations that they do not need to be engaged in and it sharply affects their dealing. They need to do better. It isna fine line though. Dealing is occasionally more than about dealing cards. You are thr gave of the casino to people who are looking for social interactions.

The floor versus dealing debate is eternal. It has been going on forever.

The best dealers do not always become floor because there is a different skillset involved. A floor actually has very little to do with the game of poker and the play of hands. A floor is mostly concerned with seating players, getting chips, and mostly providing customer service.

Don't get me wrong, occasionally they will have to make a poker ruling and it will be extremely important, but that is just a small part of their day to day job.

The skillset of a poker floor is vastly differ6than a poker dealer. There is much more of a customer service aspect. Further more, a floorperson has to be much more flexible and well rounded. They are dealing with all of the crazy requests that come up. A dealer does not deal with that crap.

Totally different skillsets.

That said, the very best floorpeople are generally pretty good dealers. They understand the customer service aspect of poker dealing and they are more likely to see the bigger picture.

The absolutely very best dealers in the world are not floor people because it is a different skill set. That said, the absolute best floorpeople in the world are at least competent dealers.

A few comments:

1. While a small number of dealers can talk they still shouldn’t do it because it’ll encourage other dealers to talk away and not pay attention:

2. If a player asks the dealer a question - restaurant, etc. the dealer should give a short polite answer and then get back to his job.

3. Very few locations have lots of big games. But virtually all poker rooms have many players at all stakes for whom the money is serious to them. These people who pay lots of rake also deserve top notch dealers who don’t talk excessively and do their job well.

4. The worse problems I have seen in a poker room occur when there’s a problem at the table and a talking dealer explains what happened wrong.

Mason

That might be true for blackjack dealers but not for poker dealers, especially not in Las Vegas or Atlantic City which are two big tourist destinations, where the majority of players are more than mildly concerned with their poker results.

1. Agreed.

2. Nobody is saying that dealers shouldn't speak. If asked a question, of course they should answer. However, this should not be interpreted by the dealer as an open invitation to give a 5 minute monolog. "I really like the Italian place and their veal parm. That's my favorite meal at that casino" is a good answer. Responding like a judge on "Top Chef" and going through each restaurant and your opinion on the various dishes is overkill.

3. Disagree talking is for tourist places. I think it is more for places that have a regular clientele. In those places, the regulars do like be acknowledged. Gathering information should be done more by listening than speaking. If a player comes in every Thursday night and you've heard that he comes in after work, then saying "Welcome back Joey, how was work today," is far more acceptable question. Your goal should be to get them talking, not talking yourself. That's done through asking open ended questions, not closed ended ones like, "where are you from." Of course by that point, you should know whether they want you to say anything to them or not. I'm confident for every person that is listening to you entertain a player, several of them are thinking, "Shut up and deal."

Also disagree with players are unconcerned with the results. Poker is a horribly boring game if you aren't playing at stakes that matter. The stakes don't have to be financial. It may be that the player enjoys getting under other people's skin. Or that they want to be a winning player overall. Even the high stakes player playing at 1/3 has a goal, if it is nothing more than bullying the small stakes players.