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Old 01-11-2018, 09:05 AM   #1
youtalkfunny
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Dealer procedure: triple draw

Arguing about this a lot lately, please chime in:

I got people telling me that NO discards should be mucked until everyone has completed their draw that round. These folks have it in their minds that "you can't put the discards from this round into the muck, because we might need to shuffle the muck, and we can't shuffle in the discards from this round."

EXAMPLE: Players A, B, and C draw. These folks are telling me not to muck A's and B's discards, in case I need to shuffle the stub to complete C's draw. They maintain that under no circumstances should C be able to draw a card that was discarded by A or B this round.

This logic completely eludes me: How is drawing from the current discards any different from drawing from the prior discards??? And not mucking all discards immediately leads to cards all over the felt that the dealer can't possibly protect, nor even keep track of.

To be clear, I understand that if we need to shuffle for C, we don't shuffle in C's discards from this round--we don't want him drawing the K on the same round he discarded the K. I'm thinking these folks who disagree with me read a rule that C's current discards should not be shuffled in, and they mistranslated this rule into "no one's current discards should be shuffled in."

I dealt a lot of TD about 8-10 years ago, haven't seen it since. My experince was "push and pull"--push their draw cards to them, and in the same motion, pull their discards directly into the muck. Maybe it's changed in that time...but I doubt it.

Experienced dealers, please respond. Everyone else, I beg you: don't chime in with what you THINK it should be, or what you've read on the subject. This one time, I'd like to restrict the replies to folks who KNOW it, who've LIVED it.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:08 AM   #2
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

Would really love to hear from bigfishhead on this one.
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:53 AM   #3
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by youtalkfunny View Post
I dealt a lot of TD about 8-10 years ago
It's been about twice that long for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by youtalkfunny View Post
My experince was "push and pull"--push their draw cards to them,
and in the same motion, pull their discards directly into the muck.
My experience is the same as yours.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:16 AM   #4
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

It's definitely the rule at WSOP to keep the current discards separate. I don't find it all that challenging to do, there's no board so you should have room to spare.

There is a strategic purpose here in having every dealer do it the same however slight the effect might be. They expect that their current discards won't make it into anyone else's hand that round. They know that 7H they gave up won't be drawn by anyone else this round and don't want to have to keep track of which dealers do it the "right" way and which ones don't.

Push-pull is what the WSOP guide tells us to do but there's at least one well known player who wants us to pitch to him. He thinks it makes it less likely other players will see marks on the cards. Once I got comfortable dealing the game I just started (carefully) pitching to everyone unless there's some obstacle like a poorly installed shuffler that I'm worried will flip cards.

Honestly sometimes you can't make sense of some procedures. When I first dealt a stud tournament I tried to up pitch 7th street because they were all in and their cards were already up and the players freaked the F out. It makes no practical difference in the game but it's what they are accustomed to.

I have heard tales of cash players requesting that the burn cards be shuffled in and the whole table agreeing to it. I guess they think the good cards were hiding there.
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Old 01-11-2018, 10:42 AM   #5
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

I’m not an experienced dealer, but have been dealing TD for the last 18 months. Our rule is that as you collect the discards for a particular round, that you keep them separate from the muck until the last draw card is dealt for that round. We use the push pull as well, but we pull them in to a separate pile a few inches away from the muck. Then you merge that pile into the muck pile. We are told never to use the current round’s discards if a reshuffle is needed. As another poster said, the WSOP dealer guide does it the same way. So while there is always room to debate the “logic” of any rule, I wouldn’t think that this procedure comes from a misunderstanding of the rule.

Some of our players were old timers in CA TD games, and they have never questioned our keeping the discards of the current round separate and not using them. And given the personalities involved, if they thought we were doing it wrong they wouldnt hesitate to point it out.
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Old 01-11-2018, 12:20 PM   #6
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by youtalkfunny View Post
Arguing about this a lot lately, please chime in:

I got people telling me that NO discards should be mucked until everyone has completed their draw that round. These folks have it in their minds that "you can't put the discards from this round into the muck, because we might need to shuffle the muck, and we can't shuffle in the discards from this round."

EXAMPLE: Players A, B, and C draw. These folks are telling me not to muck A's and B's discards, in case I need to shuffle the stub to complete C's draw. They maintain that under no circumstances should C be able to draw a card that was discarded by A or B this round.

This logic completely eludes me: How is drawing from the current discards any different from drawing from the prior discards??? And not mucking all discards immediately leads to cards all over the felt that the dealer can't possibly protect, nor even keep track of.

To be clear, I understand that if we need to shuffle for C, we don't shuffle in C's discards from this round--we don't want him drawing the KDealer procedure: triple draw: on the same round he discarded the KDealer procedure: triple draw:. I'm thinking these folks who disagree with me read a rule that C's current discards should not be shuffled in, and they mistranslated this rule into "no one's current discards should be shuffled in."

I dealt a lot of TD about 8-10 years ago, haven't seen it since. My experince was "push and pull"--push their draw cards to them, and in the same motion, pull their discards directly into the muck. Maybe it's changed in that time...but I doubt it.

Experienced dealers, please respond. Everyone else, I beg you: don't chime in with what you THINK it should be, or what you've read on the subject. This one time, I'd like to restrict the replies to folks who KNOW it, who've LIVED it.
The reason I have been given for the rule is that players consider it an unfair advantage for a player to be drawing from a stub which is reshuffled with any low cards discarded in that round which where not available to players drawing before the reshuffled in that round.

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Old 01-11-2018, 01:19 PM   #7
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

I'm not an experienced dealer, but I'm not chiming in with an opinion, just a series of questions: ultimately, what governs dealer procedures? Are there house rules you need to follow? Are the house rules specific enough? What's the penality, aside from the ire of the players, if one dealer does it one way and another dealer does it another?
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:07 PM   #8
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
I'm not an experienced dealer, but I'm not chiming in with an opinion, just a series of questions: ultimately, what governs dealer procedures? Are there house rules you need to follow? Are the house rules specific enough? What's the penality, aside from the ire of the players, if one dealer does it one way and another dealer does it another?
Well, if you’re the dealer that draws the ire of the players for doing it differently than the last dealers, that can lead to them believing you are wrong and unprofessional and so they tip you less, even if you are the one following the house rules. But on a broader view, players generally seek and expect consistency between dealers concerning rules. When different rules are enforced by different dealer or supervisors it gives them the feeling of a poorly run room. And since the players are the paying customers, it generally is a good thing not to raise their ire over things like not having your own house rules and procedures straight.

It’s like if they don’t like that a room uses a certain procedure, they may not like it or be pissed for a short time, but then it settles into a “that’s how they do it here” attitude and they quit griping about it. But when a procedure changes with different dealers or the same rule is enforced differently by different supervisors, it’s like continually pulling the scab off the wound.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:50 PM   #9
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
I'm not an experienced dealer, but I'm not chiming in with an opinion, just a series of questions: ultimately, what governs dealer procedures? Are there house rules you need to follow? Are the house rules specific enough? What's the penality, aside from the ire of the players, if one dealer does it one way and another dealer does it another?


Yes there are procedures in place we have to follow they are laid out by oyr employers and some of them are laid out by regulatory agencies.

Whats the penalty at any jb for not doing things the way your boss tells you.

Well some things may not be a big deal..... some things are a big deal.
If tyou are dealing a triple draw game to serious players and just making up your own way of doing things you can bet there are going to be floor calls and complaints by players and that will get the attention of managment.

If your dealing a mixed game to a bunch of people just splashing around having a good time they may not care at all and then managment will probably never know about.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:53 PM   #10
youtalkfunny
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

I feel much better now. Thank you, gang!

(I still like the old way better, lol.)
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:07 AM   #11
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reducto View Post
It's definitely the rule at WSOP to keep the current discards separate. I don't find it all that challenging to do, there's no board so you should have room to spare.

There is a strategic purpose here in having every dealer do it the same however slight the effect might be. They expect that their current discards won't make it into anyone else's hand that round. They know that 7H they gave up won't be drawn by anyone else this round and don't want to have to keep track of which dealers do it the "right" way and which ones don't.

Push-pull is what the WSOP guide tells us to do but there's at least one well known player who wants us to pitch to him. He thinks it makes it less likely other players will see marks on the cards. Once I got comfortable dealing the game I just started (carefully) pitching to everyone unless there's some obstacle like a poorly installed shuffler that I'm worried will flip cards.

Honestly sometimes you can't make sense of some procedures. When I first dealt a stud tournament I tried to up pitch 7th street because they were all in and their cards were already up and the players freaked the F out. It makes no practical difference in the game but it's what they are accustomed to.

I have heard tales of cash players requesting that the burn cards be shuffled in and the whole table agreeing to it. I guess they think the good cards were hiding there.
THIS!

IMO its because since the cards were the last the other players have seen, they will have a higher probability of remembering them - this could be totally wrong
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:01 PM   #12
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

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Originally Posted by psandman View Post
Yes there are procedures in place we have to follow they are laid out by oyr employers and some of them are laid out by regulatory agencies.

Whats the penalty at any jb for not doing things the way your boss tells you.
In this case, what happens if YTF is correct in the sense that he does what the rule book says to do, but all the other dealers do things a different way and it's taken root in the culture of a game? Would/should a dealer make noise to management and point out everyone is breaking the rules, or just follow along to avoid the ire of both the players and fellow dealers?
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:11 PM   #13
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Re: Dealer procedure: triple draw

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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
In this case, what happens if YTF is correct in the sense that he does what the rule book says to do, but all the other dealers do things a different way and it's taken root in the culture of a game? Would/should a dealer make noise to management and point out everyone is breaking the rules, or just follow along to avoid the ire of both the players and fellow dealers?
Let the players make the noise. Do what management tells you, when the players complain call the manager over to hear their complaints.

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