Playing 2/2 PLO in local room.

Dealer is a regular dealer that has been dealing since I have started playing poker in the NH rooms ~ 2010ish. Guy is usually funny, but can be an airhead make mistakes, seems like he is just a space cadet.

Anyway on to the situation -


Player A and Player B are all-in on the turn - dealer drops the stub, spreads the remaining deck out, essentially into the muck, asks players to reveal their cards. Players state that the river has not been dealt yet, dealer collects the spread out deck, deals the card. Player A complains immediately, floor comes over, floor states the dealers actions stand.


Should the dealer get spoken too? Players should have obviously made a stink before dealer picked up stub? Dealer definetly knew he was in the wrong and expressed to the floor that he did everything by the book, and that the stub never was intertwined with the muck.

Pretty simple if the deck wasn't mixed in with the other cards,just dropped and spread.
As long as the top two cards aren't changed, the results would be the same.

Sent from my LM-V600 using Tapatalk

This appears to be asking two different questions: what is the procedure when something like this happens, and should the dealer get penalized by the casino.

The TDA procedure is:
So if the stub is dropped but not disordered, or it can easily be reconstructed, just pick it up and finish. If it's disordered, shuffle the stub only, cut, and deal. If it's mixed in with the muck, then all you can do is shuffle it all, cut, and deal. If someone's discards end up on the board, oh well.

As for dealer KITN, it sounds like maybe you're saying the dealer lied about what happened? I can't really tell. If not, then the dealer followed procedure fine, except that perhaps the room procedures might say the dealer should call the floor over before fixing the mistake (like one would do with an early burn and turn). I wouldn't necessarily think this issue needs that if the stub is clearly still ordered and separate.

If you care about punishing dealers lying, talk to the floor away from the table, and perhaps they will investigate and do something about it.

If you're asking what should happen about the dealer simply making an airhead mistake, mistakes happen. If this dealer makes more than a usual amount, you can complain to the floor away from the table, and maybe something will happen. Complaining at the table about a single mistake is a waste of everyone's time. Mistakes happen, there are rules for how to proceed, the rules were followed correctly here.

Mistakes happen, the muck isn't some magical thing, it's really not a big deal. Most TDA rules nowadays all revolve around whether cards are idetifiable not merely whether they touch the "muck" as it used to be.

This is a tough one to comment on since it really depends on how likely/unlikely it is that the stub was mixed in with the muck. Dealer should 100% be calling the floor before trying to self-correct, but if the dealer is 100% sure the stub and muck didn't mix, the floor is going to back them up. If there's uncertainty, then the stub/muck should be reshuffled before a river is dealt.

This is exactly why the dealer drops the stub on top of the muck instead of mixing it in by the way, so we can be reasonably sure of its integrity when something goes wrong. In fact, as much as every dealer should follow the correct procedures, we especially want the airheads to!

Others, esp Dinesh, have clearly addressed how the hand gets finished.

As to the question of the dealer getting a discussion. That would to a large degree precisely what the floor asked and what the dealer precisely answered. If the dealer said the stub was never dropped, then yes a conversation with the floor away from the game is justified. You should just (promptly to make it easier on the floor) tell floor exactly what happened and let him verify with surveillance.

If the dealer was just saying the the stub while dropped, spread but was still 'intact' iow the right two cards are known w/o a doubt and that is accurate, then let it go. If the dealer is making enough of these mistakes, the floor will know and will likely have that discussion with the dealer (maybe even a writeup or discharge).

But if the stub and the muck (or burns) were intermixed (not just touching), then you need to speak up right there and now. BEFORE the river card is exposed. You can't wait until after the hand is over if you are concerned about the outcome. Now if you are the only player saying the cards were mixed and the dealer insists they were not mixed, the floor is likely to back the deal (and may or may not verify this with video later.) If multiple players are insisting the cards mixed and are not identifiable, then maybe floor will pause and immediately look at video.

If the top of the deck is intact and no cards were exposed, picking it back up and dealing the river is just fine. That's one reason why proper procedure is to keep the muck, burns, and stub separate until the hand is over.

If there's doubt about the integrity of the top of the deck the floor should be called. If they don't want to call the floor, it's appropriate to raise hell and demand the floor be called before putting the river out. Once a river is out there it becomes trickier to fix. The dealer should also be reminded to stop mixing everything up before the hand is over.

It sounds like dealer followed proper procedure for protecting the stub. For your understanding of dealer procedure, you should have a stub, a muck, and burn cards, all separate when the hand is over. Right after the dealer drops the deck, the first thing that should happen is showdown. At that point, all the three elements of the face down cards should be intact, and you should have the board up.

Only after the winner of the hand tables their hand, or possesses the last eligible hand for showdown, do things start to get mixed up. First by killing the burns to push the pot, then by killing the board and the winning hand, and only then breaking the stub and mixing in the cards after moving the button and dropping rake.

So it is actually extremely likely if the dealer follows proper procedure that the stub will remain intact until the very end of the hand. If you noticed them following the right procedure on all other hands, then I think it is entirely safe to assume that the dealer did everything correct. That’s because there’s no requirement to call the floor simply to pick up the deck in most rooms, if needed because they dropped the stub prematurely. Now if they had done something non-standard like mixing everything together, definitely call the floor. But if not I think it’s unnecessary.

Of course it sounds like someone wanted to confirm that it’s kosher, so calling the floor over is within their right. But the floor was quite correct in their ruling, and no penalty should be assessed because the right procedure was followed. No harm, no foul.

All of this is correct except that the dealer being described appears to be someone who talks too much and doesn't always pay attention to what he's doing. Yes, mistakes do happen, but if I'm describing the dealer correctly, you should politely tell him to stop talking and pay attention to the game.

If the dealer or other players complain, that's too bad. Also, and this is important, but when dealers are forced to follow procedures, they'll make more money.

Mason

I don't see any way that telling the dealer "to stop talking and pay attention to the game" would come across as "polite."

If it is especially bothersome I would talk to the floor quietly away from the table if you really want a constructive resolution.

So you're concerned that you'll offend the dealer when he's doing a terrible job. My experience is that they'll claim they're dealing perfectly but they'll usually, but not always, start to do their job better,

If the floor and other management were aware of these problems, they would already be working on them. But you can certainly talk to the floor if you want.

Mason

Hi Mason,

We each have our own style of communicating. My approach when dealing with my employees over the years has always been to compliment loudly and publicly, but criticize quietly in a 1-on-1 setting away from others. I think this makes the person much more willing to hear the criticism without getting overly defensive. I don't think embarrassing someone in front of a crowd of people gets the desired outcome.

I realize a dealer is not my employee at the table, but I think the point is the same.

Calling the dealer out harshly in front of the entire table will grab his attention, but I think that route has negative consequences. For one thing, the dealer is now pissed. Maybe this gets him to focus, but now he is silently seething (and probably not hiding it perfectly) creating an unpleasant table vibe. In addition, if another player at the table feels you are being unduly harsh and expresses this feeling, now you've got an argument and the result is a table that is not having fun.

Your way is more direct. My way is aimed at preventing the table from going to DEFCON 3.

Just an alternative way of coming at the problem.

rppoker

Aren't you paying rake? I think that does make the dealer your employee since you're the one paying for him. Again, having dealers follow good dealing procedure will not only result in a better game for you and the other players at the table but it will allow the dealer to make more money in the long run.

My experience is that the dealer may not like your comments but they do (usually) end up doing their job better, especially when I'm at the table.

Mason

Is every employee at every store you shop at your employee?

Good lord dude. Get a grip.

I think this gets it perfectly right.

From the OP's description it is really hard to tell if the stub was mixed in the muck or not. Especially the top of the stub (the part that matters).

The OP may have thought since part of the stub is touching the muck that the whole stub is foul, the dealer might have been able to clearly identify the top part of the stub so he was right. Or is could have been reversed. The stub could have been completely mixed into the muck and the dealer lying. It is tough to tell from the original post.

The rake goes to the casino and is used to pay the dealer. However that does not make the dealer the employee of the players. That is absurd. When I buy something at the store it doesn't make the store employees my employees.

Put a better way, I have bought books written by you. Does that make you my employee?

[NARRATOR: It does not.]

Not exactly, but I imagine if you thought something was terribly wrong in a 2+2 book you would let him know.

The majority of a dealer's salary comes from tips and not from the poker room. That means to me that the players are the ones who mostly pay for the dealer, and it also means to me that the players have the right for the dealer to do his job well.

And as far as your example, you're not tipping store employees.

So uh, Where do you think the store owner is getting the money to pay that employee?

Of course. Absolutely. No doubt.

However in doing so, I wouldn't assume he is my employee. There is a clear difference there.

Mason, you are obviously a smart man. Absolutely no doubt. Overall you have been an absolute gift to the poker community. You have contributed far more to poker than almost anyone.

Unfortunately you are also a very stubborn man. To the point where you will be at the bottom of a hole and you will continue to dig.

If you don't like how a dealer performs, do not tip them. They will suffer and you will get to feel superior.

However they will still not be your employee.

Good point. I guess if you're a non-tipper the dealer isn't your employee and thus shouldn't listen to you? Clearly not. When I was a dealer, I was rightfully corrected by non-tippers and I listened to them. You actually should want a dealer that DOESN'T treat you differently because you tip or don't tip. So the argument is actually extremely unhelpful when talking about bad dealers. Bad dealers will still usually be bad no matter how good or bad you tip them. And the ones that do think of you as paying for their ear by tipping are usually the worst of the bunch.

As an aside, players who don't tip or tip little will still often help start games or keep games going which does allow other players to tip.