LLNL game. On the flop player announces all in. Player 2 cannot see plate one’s stack. Dealer tells player 2 it’s $80. Player 2 announces call. Run out the turn and river. Player 1’s hand holds. Come to find out player one had more than $80. Player 2 refuses to give any more than $80 and was forced to leave. Several players agreed that since player two made his decision based on what the dealer told him, he was in the right, even if the all in player only had an extra buck. What’s the rule here?

Official rule is that it is the players responsibility to know the amount of the bet. A dealer miscount is not a valid reason not to owe the full amount.

The only place there is any real discord about the ruling is if the player makes an effort to verify the bet amount, an error is made, it is significant (ie never just a dollar), and the betting player makes no effort to correct the error. Some folks here believe that should be enough to make a Rule 1 ruling that the player is all in for the lesser amount. But there isn't agreement about this.

Also makes a difference if the player was hiding chips (i.e. one black chip) but we don't really know how the dealer figured out the count in the first place. Did the dealer break down the stack? Or estimate based on the player's stacking?

I have some questions.

1. You say the player couldn't see the stack. How do you know what the player could or could not see? Is he blind? Was there an obstruction?

2. Did the dealer break down the stack to count it?

3. How big was the actual stack?

4. How long between the dealers announcement of $80 and the players calling? Did the player who made the bet have a reasonable opportunity to correct the error?

They ran out the turn and river, so yes, there was time to speak up.

I rule the caller owes $80. If the bettor wants more than that, he should have protected his action. We're not going to back up two streets when he refuses to protect himself.

OP, please tell us this really wasn't about a single $1, that was just some hyperbole the Slippery Slope guys were arguing afterwards in the postmortem.

1. The player who called had his view obstructed. He was in seat 5. All in player was in 7. At this casino if you cannot see a players chips and you ask for a count the player does not have to count it. In other words they don’t make the player tell you how many chips he has. So if you are unable to see then you ask the dealer for a count. In this hand the player asked how much is it and the dealer told him 80. I am not sure if the dealer pull the chips and kind of them or was estimating off the stack but that’s what he told the player and that’s the player called.
2. To the best of my knowledge no the dealer did not break it down and count it.
3. About 10 inches bone-pressed.
4. After the dealer said 80 the other player immediately called.

Did the dealer say '80' or 'about 80' and was the amount close to 80 or radically different?

Of this I’m 100% sure cuz I was in the hand and folded after player 2 called. Player one said all in, the dealer said, “80.” Those were his only words. I’ve been there before when dealers have said, “about 80” or “looks like 80.” Here he only said, “80.”

I remember this happening once in my room, the dealer miscounted and said 175 instead of 215, something like that and the call for the whole amount was enforced. The player who called complained for 5 minutes and said she 'wouldn't have called' if she knew the correct amount which ranks as one of the more obvious lies I've heard at the table.

In this case $180 vs $80. I’d say that makes a difference as to whether or not one would call.

The rule is Player 2 owes the non-hidden amount that player 1 has.
An exception may be made for hidden chips.

I believe question 3 was really asking how much Player 1 actually had, not the actual height


I think if i'm in this room and have concerns about stack size, I'll have to make additional requests. If I'm player 2, can I request the chips be put into the middle and broken down so I can verify the stack size? How about permission to get up and walk to a place where I can get a better view? Can I call the floor over to verify the dealer count?

Most of the time, I'm the shorter stack, and how much the other player has isn't as important I guess I should work on that...

So the dealer can just make up any amount he wants and it's cool since the player who cannot see the other guy's stack is relying on him for that information? Seems fair.

Well if you watch the dealer not count the stack you have very little reason to rely on the count

You realize the dealer has about 137 significantly easier ways to screw you if he wants to? A simple “sorry, I thought you had folded” after taking your cards and mixing them irretrievably in the muck for example.

Unless the guy in the 7 seat was using his body to hide his chips, I don't see why the 5 seat couldn't see them.

IME, most dealers are within a chip or two (if not exactly correct) when they announce a size prior to breaking it down. TBH, I've never seen a player ask for a count and not gotten an exactly correct answer.

How much was the dealer off? I do think that's crucial to the discussion. it's a weak argument that you would have called $80, but not $85. Calling $80 and getting upset that it was $280 with a couple of hidden chips is very reasonable.

If $80 turns out to be $70, do we want V to have to dig to pay the extra $10 if we win?

If I asked and heard $80, didn't see a count, couldn't see the chips, it's 100% on me to verify (see above) or not complain if it's off (excluding hidden chips).

First of all, where the hell is this sorry excuse for a legit poker room where the dealers don't actually count a players bet and second, if the dealer doesn't break the bet down and count it you are going to be held to a call of the entire bet. If you want to know the exact amount, you better make sure it gets broken down so you can verify otherwise we are going to assume you saw the bet and decided to call.

How much above 80 did he have? 83, 93 or 580? If the dealer didn't see a 500 dollar chip or a few hundreds, then he may have been hiding them and you can go for a ruling if they're willing to call surveillance.

In the end the player is responsible to utilize the clear view of opponent's chips rule, so you should have been able to look at the stack to estimate how much is there. If he had 103 instead of 83 does it really make that much of a difference to try and hold the dealer to the 80?

Post #10 folks, player had $180 not $80

And since the OP has been banned, we won't know if it was a stack of $5s or four quarters or a single $100 chip ... or whatever.

Bottom line, trust nobody but yourself. Insist that his chips be where you can see them.

The Dealer/House takes zero responsibility for mistakes, so why should you put 100% trust in them?

I don't know why the player didn't push them out himself.

Because he was too lazy, or wanted to look "cool".

Again, another problem that would be solved by people not being dumbasses and betting by just saying "all in".

Post #10 doesn't give too much info as to what went down.

To solve these issues it's pretty simple. Ask the dealer for a count, and watch her count out the money, instead of just saying "how much" and letting her guess. Asking for a count means the dealer pulls his chips in and counts them while all the other players watch, and verify.

Was just answering your question

oops I thought you were the OP never mind