Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

Casino & Cardroom Poker Discussions of the activities, rules and etiquette of Live Casino and Cardroom Poker Venues.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-13-2019, 06:10 PM   #1
cashed
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 14
Question Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

TL,DR: Is there an easy to access list of commonly misinterpreted or confused rules that I can pull up on my phone when an insane ruling / argument occurs?

To set the stage, this takes place at a private members only cardroom:

1/2 game,

I am on the button with Black Aces,

Pre-flop action:
UTG opens to $15,
UTG+1 raises to $20,
UTG+2 says "dead raise.." before calling the $20,
Another player calls the $20 as well before it gets to me,

I put out a raise to $120 and am immediately besieged by players saying that I cannot raise because it's a dead raise. I look to the dealer for help and he sort of nods with the rest of the chorus and says "well it's a dead raise..."

I am sort of awestruck by this, but after a fair amount of discussion, and trying not to make a huge scene, the players around me relent and my raise stands.

I didn't want to call the floor because at that point I think I'm basically turning my hand face up with how intent I am to get a raise through in this spot. I basically tried to mimic a rules nit and lean on a behavior or argument that I didn't care about the hand anymore I just wanted to prove that I was right to win the argument. Obviously I call the floor if the dealer takes a stand that I can't raise here, but he was so ambivalent that I figured he was just trying to keep the table happy instead of making a ruling. Or maybe he was just new and didn't know / understand / care.

To finish the story, we still go 6 ways to the flop, and by the river end up with 3 side pots, and somehow my aces hold up and I win a massive pot.

So is there an easy to access website somewhere that I can just say "go here and look at that and it'll explain how you're wrong" instead of being forced to rules nit or call the floor?

Thanks!
cashed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 06:24 PM   #2
AngusThermopyle
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
AngusThermopyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: 乱
Posts: 14,604
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Was UTG+2 all in for the $20?

Did you ask the other players what exactly they meant by "dead raise"?

Why didn't you object as soon as the $20 "raise" and subsequent call happened?

And rules in a "private members only cardroom" often are like rules in a knife fight.
AngusThermopyle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 06:31 PM   #3
dinesh
veteran
 
dinesh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,240
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Anything goes in a home game, so good luck with that. If you want to pull something up, pull up Robert's rules of poker v11.

http://www.homepokergames.com/roberts-rules-poker.php
dinesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 07:32 PM   #4
DCJ001
veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Earth
Posts: 2,559
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by cashed View Post
I am on the button with Black Aces,

Pre-flop action:
UTG opens to $15,
UTG+1 raises to $20,
UTG+2 says "dead raise.." before calling the $20,
Another player calls the $20 as well before it gets to me,

I put out a raise to $120 and am immediately besieged by players saying that I cannot raise because it's a dead raise.
When the player made the $20 dead raise, this should have limited everyone else to calling $20 or folding. Your raise to $120 should not have been allowed.

Spoiler:
DCJ001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 07:34 PM   #5
KatoKrazy
Pooh-Bah
 
KatoKrazy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 4,052
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

They were just confused with another situation.

Player A makes it say $20. Later Player B goes all in for $35. Any player between Player B and Player A can still raise because they are facing a raise, but Player A and any player in between Player A and Player B can only call.
KatoKrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 07:42 PM   #6
smoothcriminal99
adept
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 955
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Ya they were mistaken. It’s a dead raise for utg but not anyone acting before him
smoothcriminal99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 09:16 PM   #7
steamraise
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
steamraise's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: out of position
Posts: 7,039
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCJ001 View Post
When the player made the $20 dead raise, this should have limited everyone else to calling $20 or folding. Your raise to $120 should not have been allowed.
What is a dead raise?
steamraise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2019, 10:51 PM   #8
cashed
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 14
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngusThermopyle View Post
Was UTG+2 all in for the $20?

Did you ask the other players what exactly they meant by "dead raise"?

Why didn't you object as soon as the $20 "raise" and subsequent call happened?

And rules in a "private members only cardroom" often are like rules in a knife fight.
Yes, my mistake, I could have been more clear.

UTG+2 goes all-in with his last $20.

I didn't think to say anything when the players said "dead raise" because it was a dead raise to the UTG+1 opener.

It made sense until they tried to apply the dead raise rule to my action.

Last edited by cashed; 02-13-2019 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Clarity
cashed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 02:50 AM   #9
chillrob
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
chillrob's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: under a dark cloud
Posts: 12,973
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

I've never even heard the terminology "dead raise". Is there anyone else who has actually heard of this?
chillrob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 05:24 AM   #10
agamblerthen
journeyman
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: SF
Posts: 210
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Many years ago I played in a low-stakes, spread-limit home game in which there was a limit of three raises per betting round (but each player was allowed one "personal" raise). Players had the option of making a raise of $0 to reach this limit faster and thereby avoid having to call an additional raise.

However, sometimes this backfired. A raise of $0 reopened the betting for the initial raiser. You needed two players to make a raise of $0 to end all raising on that round (other than personal raises by those yet to act).

I forget what we called this raise of $0, but it might have been a dead raise.

So when UTG+2 said "dead raise," was he referring to UTG+1's action or to his own action? I ask only because you say this was a private, members-only card room, so they might have some home game-style rules.
agamblerthen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 07:13 AM   #11
venice10
Referee
 
venice10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere special
Posts: 23,023
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

The mistake you are making is that you are assuming that there is a set of poker rules that is universal and all games have to follow. Poker rules are room based. While many rules are common to many rooms, they don't have to be. If a room decides that an all-in freezes the betting action, then that is the rule.

Very few rooms actually publish their rules, so you are often at the whim of the floor, guided by what the other players feel are the standards.

That's poker, folks.
venice10 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 11:11 AM   #12
Eponymous
Photoshop Comic Genius
 
Eponymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Trying not to suck
Posts: 3,530
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by venice10 View Post
The mistake you are making is that you are assuming that there is a set of poker rules that is universal and all games have to follow. Poker rules are room based. While many rules are common to many rooms, they don't have to be. If a room decides that an all-in freezes the betting action, then that is the rule.

Very few rooms actually publish their rules, so you are often at the whim of the floor, guided by what the other players feel are the standards.

That's poker, folks.
But it doesn't seem to be the case that an all-in freezes the betting action in this room. It was simply a number of players and the dealer misapplying a rule. It is likely this room didn't have any specific rule but were just trying to apply generally used rules. So if OP could easily refer to generally accepted rules, it may have really helped them see that they were mistaken in how they were viewing this rule.
Eponymous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 02:38 PM   #13
Suit
Pooh-Bah
 
Suit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 4,250
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Typical home game argument. There's no cheat sheet list of commonly misapplied rules. You just need to know how to find the rule quickly in Roberts rules somewhere online.
Suit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 02:44 PM   #14
Aurora Tom
grinder
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 646
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

None of this makes any sense at all, but if you're in a "private cardroom" they can make any house rules they want. I have never heard of the term either.

As for a universal set of rules to have for quick reference, that's not going to be helpful because of the house rules that can trump just about anything.
Aurora Tom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 02:55 PM   #15
Black Aces 518
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Black Aces 518's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: same dances in the same ole shoes
Posts: 8,529
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

It is about 500 times more likely that the room was misapplying a common rule rather than having a house rule that no one else can raise if someone is all-in.

I have heard the term "dead raise" before for a raise like this one, that doesn't re-open the action to people who have already acted on the original bet. So, A checks, B bets $15, C calls $15, D all in for $20. The raise is "dead" in that it doesn't allow B or C to "re-raise", since it wasn't a full raise. I have seen people not understand that players after D, including A, can absolutely raise.
Black Aces 518 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 03:15 PM   #16
Eponymous
Photoshop Comic Genius
 
Eponymous's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Trying not to suck
Posts: 3,530
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Aces 518 View Post
It is about 500 times more likely that the room was misapplying a common rule rather than having a house rule that no one else can raise if someone is all-in.
Exactly this. The fact that a room can have their own rules doesn't mean that they do (at least not for all rules) and that being able to refer to the most generally accepted rules wouldn't be helpful. OP had a valid question, and the best answer is to point him to Robert's Rules of Poker.
Eponymous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 05:35 PM   #17
steamraise
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
steamraise's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: out of position
Posts: 7,039
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by agamblerthen View Post
each player was allowed one "personal" raise
WTF does that mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by agamblerthen View Post
Players had the option of making a raise of $0
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard.
steamraise is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 05:57 PM   #18
cashed
stranger
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 14
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eponymous View Post
Exactly this. The fact that a room can have their own rules doesn't mean that they do (at least not for all rules) and that being able to refer to the most generally accepted rules wouldn't be helpful. OP had a valid question, and the best answer is to point him to Robert's Rules of Poker.
Thanks.

RROP does seem like the best quick reference available.
cashed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-14-2019, 09:44 PM   #19
VBAces
old hand
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,999
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by agamblerthen View Post
Many years ago I played in a low-stakes, spread-limit home game in which there was a limit of three raises per betting round (but each player was allowed one "personal" raise). Players had the option of making a raise of $0 to reach this limit faster and thereby avoid having to call an additional raise.
Also, many years ago, I played with some people who had the same thing, but they called it a "madge" raise (I'm making up the spelling, so you'll see how they pronounced it). It was short for "imaginary", and worked exactly as your "personal" raise. It really is kind of lame - it basically is for people who want to get to the next card (or showdown) without risking very much. I didn't know anyone else did that.
VBAces is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 01:51 PM   #20
answer20
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
answer20's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Corner of Walk/Don't Walk
Posts: 6,721
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

I downloaded TDA onto my phone but haven't quite mastered the search function that works wonders on a tower and bigger screen. Search for a key word and it will scan the whole document for that word. (Sometimes called 'Find')

Never heard of a dead raise .. but did hear of the 'no check-raise' and '3 per round' rules that have gone by the way side.

Your raise should stand in almost every room world wide these days. GL
answer20 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-15-2019, 02:50 PM   #21
Koko the munkey
veteran
 
Koko the munkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: On the road
Posts: 2,901
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Quote:
Originally Posted by answer20 View Post
Your raise should stand in every properly run room world wide these days. GL
FYP
Koko the munkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-20-2019, 12:07 PM   #22
mxp2004
adept
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Boothwyn, PA
Posts: 1,038
Re: Dead Raise ruling I feel like I'm taking crazy pills

Even acknowledging that every room can have its own set of rules, I can't imagine any poker room anywhere that would limit a player who has not yet acted to calling or folding to whatever bet represents the current action when it gets to him. The basic rules of poker are that a player who hasn't acted can call, raise or fold. RRoP shouldn't be necessary.
mxp2004 is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online