Button is currently in Seat 3, hand is in progress.

Seat 4 has a missed blind button and sits back down, ready to play the next hand.

Seat 5, who is the SB on current hand, busts out and leaves.

What's supposed to happen here? From my understanding, button should move to Seat 5 as a dead button, and Seat 4 can post back in. Am I wrong? Why?

Assuming this is a room that allows a "dead button in live games", you are correct.

What actually happened:

Busybody in Seat 6 who claims to be a dealer at some other casino and "has the entire book memorized" says that Seat 4 cannot post behind a dead button, because that would give him absolute position, which is somehow not allowed. Floor is called. Floor agrees with Seat 6, makes the button go back to Seat 3, and Seat 4 is allowed to post back in by buying the button.

I disagree with Quad. Seat 6 is right, as is floor. Button moves back to seat 3, and 4 can BTB if he wants. Otherwise only one BB next hand in seat 6, and the hand following button stays in seat 3 and 6 and 7 are the blinds.

You don't HAVE to move the button back to 3, you can leave it in 4 or 5, but then 4 cannot BTB or post on the button. He will need to wait 2 hands anyway until button moves to 6. So it's preferable to move it back to 3 to give him the additional BTB option. It also allows a different new player to sit in 5 and BTB as well if 4 doesn't want to.

Is your reasoning here that Seat 4 cannot post and have absolute position? Because if so, I have a question for you.

Imagine Seat 5 did not bust. He is still in his seat with chips in front. Seat 4 can post in now, right? So he does. Dealer starts dealing the cards, gives Seat 4 his first card, and Seat 5 announces "I'm done, deal me out." Or how about the dealer deals the full hand out, and before any action can happen, Seat 5 folds out of turn, racks up, and leaves. Are you going to make this a misdeal because Seat 4 is now posting with absolute position? Because that seems utterly absurd. I don't see why Seat 4's right to post behind the button should ever be negated because of something Seat 5 chooses to do, whether that's busting out and not rebuying, deciding he doesn't want a hand after the cards are in the air, or anything else.

Yes, that is exactly why. We do not allow players to post missed blinds, or post as a new player, if by doing so they would assume the button position.

If seat 5 says they don't want a hand or otherwise leaves the table, the dealer can just return seat 4's post, move his card to seat 6, and move on. If that's not possible it's a misdeal, at least according to the rules. In a friendly enough game I could see everyone just agreeing to ignore it rather than misdeal, but that would be non-standard.

If seat 5 looks at his hand and folds out of turn that is a different matter, he is still playing the button position and just acting OOT (and he is in the wrong for doing so).

Seat's 4's "right" to post being taken away from him is no different than a new player's "right" to post on the BB being taken away by another player returning to the table and deciding to post the BB instead. The rule is simple - you cannot post on the button, so you must wait until a hand when you are not in the button position to be dealt in.

Something you said in a previous post makes me think you might not have the situation fully correct (and for some reason I couldn't edit my earlier post to reply to it).

You said: "Otherwise only one BB next hand in seat 6"

Why would Seat 6 be BB at all? The original hand was: Button in Seat 3, Seat 4 is walking with a missed blind button, Seat 5 is SB, Seat 6 is BB. Seat 6 cannot be BB next hand no matter what.


In a room with the Dead Button rule, Seat 4 is not assuming the button position. Seat 5 is the button position and he is choosing to vacate his seat. That's what a Dead Button means. Seat 4 is the cutoff and there just happens to be nobody behind him. This is not the same thing as being the button. The button will still move on next hand, and every player will pay 1 BB and 1 SB in the orbit.

If you are insisting that this is actually a rule, I'd love to see it quoted out of some authoritative source. This seems like the exact kind of thing that floors will be inconsistent on based on who the players involved are.

You're right, seat 6 is the SB and 7 is the BB.

I know what you're saying, but when the button is in seat 5, and seat 5 is unoccupied for some reason, then seat 4 has the button position.

As for "official" rules, RRoP says some things, but is ambiguous about it. Here are some quotes:

The player who gets the last card, and is last to act, is the button position.
This is what "Dead Button" means, as opposed to a Moving Button.
Rule 4 and 9 don't say anything about not being able to post on the button, which supports your position. But rule 7 says you must wait until the button passes, which kinda supports mine, except if you want to argue that the player isn't in the button position if the actual button seat is not dealt a hand (which you did, but which I strongly disagree with, as noted above). It's also worth noting that rules 4 and 7 are specifically talking about new players, and 9 on a returning player with a button, which also supports your position.

I will agree that it could be clearer, but IME in general rooms will rule that you cannot post when you have the button position. I suppose it is possible that some rooms do things differently and allow it (Quad is a respected dealer, so perhaps his room is one of them), but I do not believe that to be the case frequently. It seems not to be the case in your room.

While it may be true that different floors might rule differently, I don't think that's because the rule isn't there, I think it's because it's an edge case that most floors don't see happen often enough to get corrected on if they're doing it wrong.

"Dead button" rule means that the button doesn't have to move every hand, so the same player can have the button twice in a row. It should never move forward to an empty seat.

Not sure if you are a floor or a dealer, but as a player I see this situation happen fairly often. And nobody ever thinks twice about the guy in the cutoff posting in (or being dealt in as a new player). I imagine if the floor started being called over for this multiple times per day they might rethink whether or not this is actually the rule, or whether their staff are trained properly.

Maybe this is the real issue here, because dealers move the button to the empty seat approximately 100% of the time.

I should also point out that it is much more frequent for rooms to allow a dead SB to be posted OTB. But posting a live blind OTB is not something which is generally allowed IME.

Moving the button to an empty seat isn't actually the problem (as I mentioned above, the primary reason not to do it is just to give the returning player or a new player the option to BTB if they want). The issue really is specifically just around whether a player can post missed blinds OTB (and whether a player is effectively OTB if the button is to their left in a seat which is not dealt a hand).

Posting in the CO is definitely allowed. The issue is whether the player is in the CO or the BTN if the button is in front of a seat with no player.

In some rooms they do, but most places I have played it is rare. It grates me everytime they do move it, because it can lead to problems like this one.

There is no issue here if you never move the button to an empty seat. There is no reason for this every to be done anywhere, regardless of house rules about missing blinds.

I don't disagree, but if enough people leave/bust out in the right places, you actually have to move the button backwards to achieve this solution, which seems very wrong to some people. So you sometimes need to be able to explain it with a button in an empty seat regardless.

I've seen the button move backwards several times before. I've also seen the button stay in the same place 4 hands in a row. Neither caused any problems or complaints.

Both make way more sense to me than having _no one_ be the button.

assuming dead button rule is in play, button moves to seat 5 and is dead. player 4 must wait a turn.

And then the player sitting out will be upset and not understand why he can't play this hand. If you leave the button in seat 3 he will easily understand the situation.

In my experience only the best floors and best dealers fully and completely understand the dead button rules. Typical ones think that the button needs to move because it isn't fair to let the same person be button twice. They don't even realize that moving the button but not allowing a player to take a hand is the same as the button not moving. Except it ultimately leads to confusion and incorrect rulings.

In such a dispute one time, I tried to walk a poor floor through this to lead her to the right answer so she could rule correctly in the future. I started as basic as I could and ask, 'First, does this room use a dead or a moving button rule?' Her response "of course the button has to move." Given she did not even know of these two button rules, I decided just to give up.

If we as an industry would learn to keep it simple maybe eventually getting these rulings right would become the norm. We should just learn the whoever is going to receive the last card dealt is the button and to put the button there, even if the button has to move backwards to the prior cutoff or hijack.

Another option is to move cash game to the moving button rule. But if we can't understand where to put the button on a dead button rule, we will never get everyone to understand a moving button you can wind up with BB and SB all over the place. Not because it is more complicated but because people are so used to always seeing only a single BB.

Generally players posting to re enter or joining a table, note I am only talking cash games, can't come in as the button in most rooms. So other than who is the BB, Dinish had it right for most rooms

Must agree with Chillrob. If the button represents the dealer, how could the button ever be in front of an empty seat. That would imply (transitive property?) that no one is the dealer for that hand. And if no one deals there is no hand.

This is how they do it in our room. It will stay in the same seat twice, or move backwards if needed.

Something is still bugging me about this, and it's the "Deal me out" hypothetical I brought up in Post 5.

Even if dealers are properly moving the button, this situation is going to cause a misdeal, and that just seems absurd to me.

In fact, let's even go a step further and say that Seat 5 is a superstitious player who will only leave when it's his button, and will only announce that he's leaving right before he receives his first card while on the button. What's going to happen now? It's going to be a misdeal, the button will magically move to Seat 3, Seat 4 will buy the button... and now Seat 5 will say "Hey I'm not the button anymore? Then deal me in!"

We have created a poker paradox because of our stubborn insistence that Seat 4 can't post his missed blinds in last position.

I already told you what will happen. The dealer will take the card he dealt to seat 4, move it to seat 6, and push back seat 4's post. The only time there would be a misdeal is if seat 4 looked at the card first. And if so, I guess it's a misdeal, suck it up. It's not like this event happens 10 times an hour.

According to the logic of other posters here, that's not what will happen. If Seat 5 chooses to get up, the button needs to move back to Seat 3. Maybe they're wrong, but in that case I accuse the Dead Button Rule of being ambiguous to the point of uselessness. It needs to be fixed.

This is effectively the same situation as the button folding out of turn. It's not ideal, but doesn't cause a misdeal or problem of the new player having the button. In your theoretical example, I would keep dealing seat 5 in, but then warn him not to fold out of turn. If it happens more than once with the same PITA player, ban him from the room.