Late night 2/5 game, our storyÂ’s protagonist is some combination of drunk, doesnÂ’t speak English well, possibly some sort of mental abnormality. When he speaks, heÂ’s mumbling quietly, he needed bomb pots explained to him, but easily knew how to post when coming back from the bathroom. Just sort of erratic like sometimes he was present sometimes he wasnÂ’t. His play also erratic, fairly active , showed down a few junky hands, weird sizings.

Protagonist gets to the river heads up with ~$800 in the pot, AQJXX with a diamond flush possible. Protagonist bets $400, villain jams for $500 total, dealer announces all in and puts out the all in button. Protagonist mutters something unintelligible , then tables KT no flush across the betting line, not near the muck. Villain is on other side of the table , says something like “you don’t got a flush I got you beat.” Does not table hand.

Dealer waits maybe 3 seconds then mucks protagonists hand, begins to push pot towards villain, someone points out protagonist has a straight, pause, table sort of erupts into chatter, villain asks dealer to call the floor.

Floor rules that tabling the hand with a forward motion across the line when player hasnÂ’t called the raise is a fold, specifically saying the dealer is trained to muck the hand immediately in this situation.

Correct ruling? Just kind of a crazy situation, where the guy obviously wasnÂ’t folding, some speculated he thought the other players all in was less than his bet. Worst part is he didnÂ’t say a single word in his own defense

I've never dealt or played in a betting line casino, as most casinos on the west coast only use the line as a courtesy line for the dealer. However in a forward motion casino this certainly qualifies as a fold by the letter of the law. I do think that it's better to clarify what the person is doing in this situation, but it takes a skilled dealer to navigate that situation. It's safe to say that the player did not protect his cards so the dealer did absolutely nothing wrong in my opinion, just could have been a little bit nicer and asked "are you folding?" before mucking the cards.

Protagonist open folded, or should be ruled as such, that's my conclusion. He possibly saved $100, maybe not.

There are definitely rooms where putting your cards unprotected forward or across a line, face up or face down, facing action is a fold. The hand was definitely not tabled because the bet he was facing was not called. Imo, since what was said was unintelligible, dealer should clarify if this is a fold. But if a player releases his hand forward, up or down, facing action, certainly can be treated as a fold. At a minimum one needs to protect their hand.

The betting line primarily applies to chips crossing the line. I've never experienced a situation where the betting line applied to cards that were tabled.

Normally when facing a bet, tossing your cards toward the middle of the table is usually a fold, absent a call or chips being put into the pot at the same time.

Did he table his cards in front of him or toss them forward towards the dealer?

Sounds like the right ruling to me.

Not a crazy spot, but definitely littered with 'It Depends' by Room possibilities.

1) VERY unusual that a 'line' is used in a Poker Room anymore, but if there is one then so be it .. HOWEVER, in this case here the Dealer typically will verify a Player's action especially when there's been multiple actions taken by the Players. It's very possible that the Dealer is not supposed to speak up (as trained) and the delay in mucking the cards was the best they could do (in this room).

2) How were the cards tabled .. tossed, placed, slid? Typical or different than a 'normal' fold by this Player. (Sure, the Dealer may have just arrived at the table.)

3) Was Hero (well) aware that he still had action to act on? V stacks/bet size verified? (Sure, the All-In Button was out there .. but.)

4) Did the 3rd Player violate OPTAH since there was action pending .. not a Showdown occurring?

5) Why did V call the Floor (and not the Dealer)? Very odd that they would want to risk losing the pot unless they actually did have a winner and was possibly aiming at getting more chips into the pot.

6) How else but forward motion can cards and chips end up over a line? (Not serious of course)

It seems based on how the Floor handled the spot that the holding was considered dead once they are place forward over the line pending action, whether face up or down. The loophole IMO is whether or not it was clear that there was still action to be considered. Rule #1 is there just for spots like this one, but each Room sets it's own tone for how much discretion the Dealer/Floor is afforded. GL

IMO a correct ruling. Hand being tabled is meaningless. There was still action; 100 to call the shove. The only real gray area here was whether protagonist made a verbal declaration of “call”. If so, he must put out the $100 for the call and villain must show to win the pot. I’m not sure how you’d handle an unintelligible mumble though. I’m not sure you could hold him to a verbal declaration of “call” based on that alone.

Allowing him to call without a verbal here seems to me to be opening up an angle (I know that this probably wasn’t the case with a drunk player in this situation, but I mean generally). Player discards face up, then waits to see villain’s reaction before deciding whether to claim he is calling or not. Whatever the intent here by drunk protagonist, I think “fold” is the proper ruling.

Appreciate the feedback, does seem like it was the correct ruling, I just feel bad for dude lol. Answering a few of the questions:

- How exactly he tabled his hand: Protagonist sitting in three seat, lifts cards with right hand, turns them face up still in hand, extends his arm to arm and cards are now pointing towards the one seat still holding cards up in air, flicks wrist to place down cards near one seat and dealer. I'm cautious to confidently attribute common intentions to this guy's action because he was so off, but was basically a perfect example of when people "Can you believe this?" when folding a coolered hand.

- Verbal call: There is no way his mutter/grumble could be argued as a call. I was sitting next to him, I question who else at the table even heard the noise he made. If I was villain and anyone tried to argue protagonist said "call" I would be fighting that vehemently.

- Protagonist awareness of action: Obviously can't say for sure, but it's my best guess he wasn't aware there was a raise. I think he thought the all in button indicated that the other player had gone all in by calling protagonist's bet. He didn't ask for clarification. Dealer announced all in, put out the button, then gestured towards the protagonist. I guess this could have been interpreted as gesturing for him to table because it was showdown, but that's on the protagonist for sure, no dealer error there.

- Third player who announced "wait" : Yeah I think that does technically violate OPTAH, or it would if the ruling was in favor of protagonist it would be. I guess it doesn't because the ruling is the hand was dead before this player spoke up?

- Villain calling floor: Technically villain immediately asked the dealer to call the floor, didn't call himself. But I think he saw the straight, knew he had worse, figured ruling the hand dead is the only way he wins the pot.

This issue with this logic is that trying to let the player's hand impact the ruling would create an impossible standard to keep. What if he had a set? Two pair? Top pair? How weak does Hero's hand have to be before we (quite arbitrarily) decide they weren't obviously calling.

Fine with the ruling, it's a tricky situation for the dealer. Even clarifying Hero's action can be seen as a OPTAH violation since if the guy had nothing, the dealer just mucks without a thought. But for them to question the action could give make the player second guess themselves.

He had plenty of time to stop the dealer from
taking his cards and mucking them and pushing the pot to V.

"Hold it dealer, I tabled a straight, I call the 100."
any time before the chips are in V's possession...

After chips are being stacked and someone points out the straight he speaks up?

Too late.

No he tabled nothing. He folded face up. Ha can’t call after he folds.

If your idea was correct, then even after Chips are in V stack he can speak up. Ha would have until the next hand begins with first rif or hitting green button. But hand forward, esp. un protected, facing action wo chips or a verbal call is a fold.

His cards were face up on the felt.

If he had stopped the dealer from taking his hand it would be live.
If he stopped the dealer before cards were in the muck he has a chance with a floor ruling.
If he stopped the dealer before the chips were in V's possession he still has a chance with a floor ruling.

After that it's definitely too late.

He was facing a bet. You cannot properly t@ble a hand until showdown. We were not at showdown.

He may have a chance with a floor ruling but it would be a bad ruling. While you can retrieve a discarded hand at showdown so long as it is clearly identifiable. But that is not true of a folded hand. A fold is binding, face up or face down.

As to when a claim can rightfully be made, the rule I have always seen is until start of the next hand. Never have I seen that when a pot is pushed as the rule. Even the start of next hand can be overridden. I have seen an incorrectly pushed pot reclaimed and awarded to proper winner even though it was a couple of hands later.

But in this case the hand never made it to showdown because the last $100 was never called.

Where I work a hand is not folded/dead, the instant it's turned face up, while facing action.

Sounds like he was folding to me and I would be mucking his hand and pushing the pot.
But... if he grabbed the cards before I got them, they would be live.
And if he speaks up before chips are being stacked, I stop pushing pot and the floor decides.

And yeah I think it would be a bad ruling to give him the pot.

I'm fine with basically any ruling here but I wish more dealers actually mucked hands.

I guess I'm the only one here who thinks this is a terrible ruling.

In a tournament this is against the rules and clearly an angle but never considered a fold.

In a cash game I have never been in a room where this would be considered a fold.

Because the hand was tabled the player is absolutely allowed to call the Floor over and say he wasn't folding or hadn't made a decision yet. Unless the room has a rule in a cash game that showing your hand in a HU spot is an automatic dead hand, the hand should still be live.

Tabling your hand across the line is always allowed after you have called, so it can't be considered a fold unless the player has said the word "fold" or "I am not calling" out loud which didn't happen here.

If I was the Floor here I would ask the player if he was folding or not.

The funny thing is if the other player mucks his hand, in every room I play in the pot would be awarded to the Protagonist when he says "I call". More than once I have seen this happen where a player throws his hand face up across the table (without saying anything) and the other player mucks his hand. The ruling has been the tabled hand is the winning hand every time.

Because he didn't speak up until after all that and someone
pointing out the straight, I don't think the ruling is horrible.

Actually the definition of a fold (at least ine) is tossing hand forward up or down when facing action. So a toss it would be a fold. Placing forward is treated different?

You can’t TABLE a hand until showdown just like you can’t fold at showdown because a standard fold is when facing a bet. Unlike a tabled hand, which cannot be killed by dealer, this hand definitely can and was killed.

Your logic that you can table your hand across the line after you call, so any hand face up across the line can call has no logic. Please explain why such a hand must be allowed to call.

Tossing a hand face down is always a fold. Though there are dealers who refuse to put them in the muck pile for whatever their reasons.

Tossing a hand face up is very often a fold. But the problem occurs when another player mucks their hand and the player who tossed their hand says "call". The ruling every time I have seen this happen has been in favor of the player who tossed their hand face up.

I have never seen a dealer take a tossed face up hand and muck it. They typically do what was done here. They ask the player whether they are folding or calling. Here the dealer waited a few seconds and then mucked the hand. Which doesn't change anything if the player insists they are calling (which I have also seen happen). Because the hand was face up the Floor has given them back the hand every single time I have seen this happen.

This was a cash game and I assume there is no rule that a face up hand is dead before action is complete. In my opinion there was no reason whatsoever for the Floor to act like it was a fold because it was tossed forward face up.

Now this could have been an angle and the player was hoping the other guy would muck his hand and then he would grab his and put out the $100 for a call. But because he has a straight I think that is highly unlikely.

Based on OP's description of the Protagonists craziness in terms of protocol and talking, my guess is that he intended to call or maybe to get a read before he called or even thought that the all in was less than his $400 bet. Who folds to a $100 raise in a monster pot like this when he has a straight? My guess is that if he was asked and had to decide he would have called and it would have been a chop or a loss to a small flush. If I had been the opponent in the hand I would have asked the dealer not to put the cards in the muck and I would have asked the other player if he was calling or folding (which is my way of protecting my hand).

I have never seen a Floor rule that the intent of somebody tossing a face up hand forward is a fold. A Floor is always entitled to do what they think is right regardless of the rules but here I just think it misses the point. Its a huge pot, its a $100 raise, its unclear what the intent was when the hand was tossed forward face up, and the hand was tabled so it can be retrieved. Just give the guy the option to call the $100 and move on. If he doesn't respond then give him 10 seconds to decide and tell him its a fold if he doesn't say anything.

I have seen whacky situations where a player doesn't understand what the floor is saying and doesn't know what is going on. Once at one of the Borgota $1,000,000 guaranteed $550 tournament a guy had headphones on and the Floor came over and told him the clock had been called. He didn't realize that he had been c/r'd, he never heard a word the Floor said (or he thought the clock was called on the other player) and when the clock ran out and his hand was dead he was stunned the moment the pot was pushed to his opponent. He would have insta called he said. He just never knew it was on him or that a clock had been called on him.

Tossing a hand when facing a bet has always been a fold where I played, be it face up or face down.

There's a big difference between just exposing/turning over and tossing/releasing forward.

.
I'm mucking that hand rather slowly while watching the player,
giving him a chance to stop me if folding was not his intent.

But every room I've worked in that hand is live if he speaks up before I get it into the muck.


Even when tossed face down with intent to fold, if they grab that hand before I get it, it's been ruled live.

I think it's a bad rule, because "unfolding" a hand opens up all sort of angles for obvious reasons.

If the hand is really tossed (released with a forward motion) WHEN FACING A BET, which seems to be the case from OP but not entirely sure, the dealer should muck this hand as soon as possible.

Generally, throwing a hand forward when facing a bet or raise is a fold, whether it is face up or face down. (This is one of the few places where Mr Rick and I appear to feel very differently about things.)

The difficulties begin when (especially on the river) the player throwing it forward doesn't realize (or claims not to realize) that there was a bet or raise, and he thinks it is showdown, or even that his bet has been called and it is now on him to show his hand.

Or, in cash games in some rooms when heads up, the player may be exposing his hand trying to get a read. (I do wish this was not permitted by the rules, but in many places it is.)

So there are many cases where there may need to be some use of judgment to decide how to handle the situation.

I know some dealers here are old school and just want to muck the hand and tell the player to pay more attention. But that is not my style, not a good way to handle newer players, and doesn't seem most fair in many cases. I'd definitely prefer the dealer ask if it's a fold before mucking it if there is any reasonable chance it was not intended as such.

Mr Rick,

In this spot, suppose the villain tabled a flush after the hand was tossed forward face up. Would you allow this player to claim he folded and not make him pay off the extra hundred or are you holding him to the call?

It turns out we still agree on everything, including this... OK we do disagree (I think) on allowing the player to still call once his tabled hand has been put in the muck pile by the dealer.

I would allow the player to fold even though it would have clearly been an angle. I do not consider tossing his cards face up a call. I don't consider it a fold either. It is important to ask him quickly what he is doing. Is he calling? Or is he folding?

This happened recently to me in a tournament (I don't remember where). A player tossed his hand face up and I asked him if that was a call. He said no he was folding (which is likely true most of the time in this type of situation). He had just wanted to show us his hand. Turned out to be a good fold.