I play the NL shortstack strategy very well but I am one of the worst full- or deep-stack NL players who have ever sat down at an NL table.

If I sit down at, for example, a 1/3NL table with $100, triple it up within 30 minutes and decide I want to get up before I get fleeced by a better player, do I have any reason not to?

Hopefully you're getting called to your LHE around then.

Not always the case not surprisingly.

I would try to stick it out and learn until you are called. That's what I did (and still do sometimes).

There are all types of fish. If you play a game that you realize is negative ev for you for any reason you are a fish. Now many fish get something they value more than the money by playing a negative ev game but unless that is your reason don't be a fish.

Most people are not favorites the first time they play any variety of poker. If you're good at one, you can almost certainly learn to be good at another, but you usually have to pay a little tuition while learning.

One of the best skills a great poker player possesses is the ability to understand what other players want and playing against them accordingly.

If another player is just looking to get it in good and move on, then do not accommodate them. Either get it in good against their expected range, or let them play against other players and move on.

Not complicated.

One of the worst ?? How so .. and if so then what changes from 50bb to 150bb? Is it just shove or fold for you?

You can play shove or fold but you just need to pick spots with dead money out there.

If you're room plays 1-2-18-75-allin then that's hardly exploitable .. it's just pure gamble that you need to 'encourage' .. not run from. GL

Proper short stack strategy is not shove or fold. Not even with a 20BB stack, at least not in higher stakes game where open raises aren't >5x.

You can even argue that playing SSS is the least gamble-y form of no limit hold'em because you're trying to play a hot/cold equity game as much as possible which is very profitable if nobody else can do that because their stacks or too big.

Sounds like a mental game thing more than you being actually not good enough to win 100bb NL poker. Maybe a possible tactic is to play some 10NL online if possible just to get comfortable with 100bb game and then see if some of those skills translate to live play. Idk seems like a pretty low risk strategy.

If losing one stack tilts you so hard, you need to git gud at the mental aspect of poker.

IMHO (and I could be wrong), 99% of my issue with live full-stacked NL is I'm simply not rolled for it. Full stop.

Just making conversation, live 1/2 and 1/3 tables (and many 2/5 tables for that matter) are full of calling stations. You can raise aces to 12bb after 4 limpers and they'll all call. You can c-bet 3/4 pot on safe board and usually get 1 or 2 calls (of course in NL you have adjust your bet sizes based on if you're trying to get your stack in or how many streets of value you think your hand has yada yada yada I know all that, I'm just making an oversimplied example). You can half-pot the turn and usually get 1 caller. Now you're on the river and you either get donked into for the rest of your stack or you make a standard bet and get raised for the rest of your stack. What do you do? Well, 19 times out of 20 the answer is FOLD, and usually in that case over half of your stack is GONE. And usually the other guy won't show if you fold, so you're left wondering whether or not that one hand was the one time in 20 that you got bluffed.

Contrast that to LHE. I can raise 4 limpers with aces, bet the flop and the turn (if there's no apparent opportunity to protect my hand), and if I get raised on the river, I just call. Not because I don't want to get bluffed out, but because IN LOW-STAKES LHE PAYING OFF IS 100% THE CORRECT STRATEGY, FULL STOP. It doesn't even faze me when my aces get drawn out on the river because usually by the time that happens in a session I've had other big hands hold up just fine or I'VE been the one to make an unlikely two pair or better hand against someone's top pair.

I also think it can't be ignored that in LHE there's, for all practical purposes, zero risk of losing your entire stack on one hand. As a corollary to that, you can go on a heater at an LHE table, and after building up a bigger stack, it's NOT all at risk - the chips you've already won are fairly "safe". In NL, you could sit down with $300, triple it up, and then watch the entire $900 go into someone else's stack on a suckout. That crap HURTS (well, I've never had $900 in front of me before, but I've lost $300 on one hand, and as much as THAT stung, I don't even want to THINK about losing $900 on one hand!)

I didn't mean to write such a long book, but I think I answered your question about why I think I'm so bad at NL



P.S. I didn't mean to hijack the thread. The thread is about hitting and running. I'm merely explaining why i believe I have an advantage when I sit down with a small stack but feel like a fish out of water once it gets bigger, therefore I consider hitting and running in that case.

There's wisdom in this. As much success as I'm having at LHE and shortstacking NL, it's not out of the realm of possibility that I WILL be rolled for NL someday. Every second I sit at a table with a full stack is a second of practice getting USED to risking so much money. Even getting sucked out on for a stack is an opportunity to practice reminding oneself that one got it in good and those things happen. We'll see what the future holds.

In that oversimplified example you start the hand with >300BB and the pot is almost 400BB after your opponent called your turn bet.

I don't think anyone would advise for you to buy in for 500BB instead of 50BB next time you play.

This is not a strategy forum but for most players building a 60BB pot preflop with aces would be a luxury problem rather than a real issue.

The thing that makes short stacking so profitable is also the biggest issue: If you simplify the game you don't learn how to play poker. That's not even a no-limit hold'em issue. If you play a game of NL without any river decisions (except for limped pots) you're also missing out on improving your river play in limit hold'em. If you can almost never play speculative hands that also doesn't help with any other form of poker. You learn to play poker by playing hands not by folding 90% of the time preflop.

A couple of thoughts:

1. You are describing an absolute dream game. If people are constantly calling overbets, you should be in poker heaven. Your first adjustment should be to raise more. Whatever you think is a smartly sized raise/bet, add to it. Keep adding to it to the point where you are shoving for ridiculous overbets and getting called. Keep trying to surprise yourself at how big you can bet and still get called. The bigger you bet, the worse odds they are getting (assuming you do have the best hand).

2. Stop continuation betting when you miss. Continuation bets work because they have fold equity. In a game where you are getting called, you have no fold equity so stop continuation betting. If you hit the flop, bet big, if you miss, play small. You are not trying to disguise your range here. People are calling you no matter what so you are looking to bet big when you have the best of it and play small when you don't.

It seems obvious, but I am always surprised at how many people don't adjust to the main difference between NL and limit poker. In no limit you can adjust the bet size relative to the pot. Duh, I know, but some players know this but never adjust. In NL, if you think you have the best hand you should be making the other players pay to chase with a worse hand. Make them pay as much as possible.

In NL, players will often chase even though they aren't getting proper implied odds, occasionally they will catch and beat you. That is generally a good thing because more often they won't and you will win a lot.

If you're not rolled .. and can admit it, then you are in a rare group of Players. If you're room is large enough that it really doesn't matter that you hit-n-run then by all means go ahead and do it. We have plenty of Players who roll in at 6pm and try to win their 7pm tournament entry by short stacking. All the Regs know what's going on and play accordingly. If they triple up .. they're gone! If they bust .. then they just blew a rebuy!

You have plenty of poker knowledge, but are falling prey to the 'tank of gas' mentality that can cripple lots of Players at 1/2 who just really don't want to lose a tank of gas 'every' hand.

Your strat should be to just 'never' 3bet when you get deeper .. shoot, don't even open. The chips will just gravitate to you! There are plenty of Players at the table who will do your betting for you with their J8s. And once every 2-3 orbits you will find someone who over-plays AK/QQ and you'll have just flatted with AA and put yourself in a position to 4bet jam 3-4x pot .. which actually is an amount they will fold to.

What 'you' can do where most Players fail is make adjustments to your game plan once you acquire some chips. You can call it 'lock down' if you must, but no one worth two cents in Poker will dawg you for playing 99-JJ as a set mine when deep since it now 'makes sense' to flat 20bb when 400bb deep v 120bb deep with no implied odds.

As you said 'no one' folds .. so stop playing like they will! GL

For whatever little it may or may not contribute to the conversation I only agree with this about 90%. A GOOD short-stacker is constantly paying attention to every single hand being played at the table. He's not just doing it for the future - he's doing it for the PRESENT. He's making sure he's consistently seeing the conditions that are necessary for the table to be profitable for a shortstacker, i.e. villains limp-calling raises, early position raises consistently getting called, flop bets getting called light etc. And he's also practicing for the FUTURE - he's watching which villains are folding every hand and which are limping into every pot. He's putting villains on ranges before the flop and adjusting based on the flop/turn/river action, and when a rare hand actually goes to showdown, seeing if he's right.

When a good shortstacker gets DEALT, for example, a pocket pair or suited connector in late position, the good shortstacker folds it, but then thinks through as the hand progresses how he would play it - how big a flop bet would I call here to chase, how big a turn bet would I call, who else is in the hand, what are their tendencies, how much implied odds do I have etc. In any of the above cases, if a shortstacker sees a hand that makes him think, "Hmm, I'm actually not sure what the right play was in that situation" he pulls a notebook out of his pocket, writes it down, and then later evaluates the hand away from the table.

I don't mean to belabor the point, but players who are truly trying to get good usually read a lot of books. Shortstacking gives you even more chance to evaluate what you see in books vs. what you see live and learn when to apply or not apply specific strategies based on table conditions.

Lastly, not ALL of the decisions are completely trivial, like what do you do when you flop overcards or what if there is one overcard to your pocket pair on the board. Even some preflop decisions are nontrivial like when your late-position raise with AQo gets 3-bet by an OMC. You still have to know how to count combos, calculate how often the villain has to fold for your bet to break even etc. to know whether to shove or fold in those situations. Understanding how to make the right decisions in those situations can help to set you up for more successful full- or deep-stack play.

Of course, learning all of that and then being able to apply it when there's money at risk are 2 different things, hence the 90%.

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Nothing you can do mate. It’s within the rules I’d call him out so everyone knows what a pusssy he is but it ain’t gonna stop him